Trouble at t'Proms

[johnb]

The whole incident is disturbing and regrettable. The danger is that everyone will interpret what happened in a way that bolsters their own preconceived ideas.

Sure the IPO is an independent organisation and but it has also been (and is) used as a cultural ambassador for Israel. There is nothing unusual in that – all nations behave similarly – but it does mean that it is impossible to sustain the idea that its performances are totally divorced from politics.

I was saddened by the nature of the protests and the disruption caused to the audience and the orchestra. On the other hand, as far as I know, there was no violence, no throwing of powders, pain or missiles.

Anna and Lat seem to think that the protestors behaviour was anti-semitic. I fail to see the evidence for that but then I didn’t hear what the protestors were shouting. The problem is that all anti-Zionist protests risk being labelled anti-semitic whether or not that is the case.

In some respects the Palestinians have to shout and scream to be heard whereas Israel has an extremely influential and powerful Rolls-Royce lobbying machine.

I didn’t like what happened inside the RAH but something similar was inevitable.

[aeolium]

One is left to conclude that those people - perhaps the few - would like to see millions forcibly moved to the US or Europe, whatever the human costs to them and the economic costs to us. If that occurred, it would be an abomination way beyond anything that occurred in Germany then or Palestine now.

I think this is to some extent a 'straw man' argument. Most pro-Palestinian organisations, including the Palestine Solidarity Campaign which may well have been involved in this protest, wish to see a resolution along the lines of international law, and principally the key UN resolutions which would require the return to the pre-1967 boundaries. Millions of Palestinians were in fact forcibly removed from their homes during the establishment of the Israeli state, and live in exile or refugee camps. There is an extremist viewpoint taken by some Islamic fundamentalists (and e.g. the Iranian president) that opposes the existence of the state of Israel but I doubt that is the position of most of those who support the right of the Palestinians to self-determination.

Re the lack of protesters last night from the West Bank or the Gaza strip - how realistic is it to expect any given the financial and practical constraints placed on those who live there (e.g. severe restrictions on movement)? Do you think it is easy for such people to nip over to London for a protest?

On the subject of the protestors, by all means demonstrate outside, hand our leaflets, try and persuade people to boycott but if that fails, don't force your beliefs on people who merely (whether or not they are pro or anti-Israel or couldn't care less) went to hear a concert. I don't see what purpose the protest served except as Lat says, it's an excuse for anti-Semetic behaviour

Precisely the same kind of argument could have been used against the protests against the South African rugby and cricket teams in the 1960s, or indeed against the Suffragettes who disrupted various events including the Derby in the early C20. Have a nice little quiet protest but don't interrupt our enjoyment. Yet most change has actually been effected through disruption, or the threat/fear of it. I didn't like the sporting protests in the 1960s as I wanted to see some superb players (and it was no fault of theirs that their government was promoting apartheid policies) but I'm glad they happened as I think they did contribute eventually to change.

And protests against Israel, and Israeli policy are not the same as anti-semitism, as has been endlessly (but apparently fruitlessly) pointed out.

[ahinton]

when I fell in love with the music of Wagner way back when, I had no idea of the controversy surrounding the composer. It was just music. That's what I heard, and that's what I loved. The music transcends any context, whether cultural or political. If you want to drag any external connotations onto it, that's your perogative, but equally one should be able to just listen to the music without burdening it with any excess baggage.

Whilst I take your point and it is by no means invalid, the deliberate inclusion in Die Meistersinger of references that would have made their political points at the time but which would nowadays be lost on most of us who are not Wagnerian scholars and historians should not be ignored. It should also not be forgotten that Wagner did actually publish some of his anti-Semitically oriented views and that these came from the same mind as Tristan und Isolde; Chopin, too, was on occasion wont to express anti-Semitic sentiments, though this evidently has little adverse effect on his friendship with his Jewish colleague Alkan. Yes, music can indeed transcend all manner of things, but let's not kid ourselves that this is all that is does, even when it does that.

That said, those composers from Alkan onwards for at least a century who have to any degree at any time revealed in their work some influence of Jewish music hardly did so as representatives of the current Israeli régime...

[Lateralthinking1]

aeolium - It is interesting that you mention sport. The London Olympics are next. They need to look at what happened at the RAH to decide what to do about the security for that event. Beyond that, what should an Israeli person of exceptional sporting ability, and opposition to Israeli government policy, do? Forfeit the right to take part purely on the grounds that he or she was born in a certain place? There is a question of individual rights and protections here - and that is what concerns me about yesterday. The musicians were also people of the world.

[Serial_Apologist]

s_a

"Many point the anti-semitic finger to cover up their own apologetics for Israeli policies".

Perhaps but beyond the proclivities of the more extreme elements of the Jewish lobby, and the ineffectiveness of international diplomacy, I am not so sure. Maybe I don't mix in the relevant circles but I haven't met anyone who thinks that the current policies of the Israeli government are "a good thing".

The last wedding that I attended was a traditional Jewish one. Fascinating, educational and very good fun it was too. I loved the music and dance. He had recently spent some time on a kibbutz. She was excelling in my Government Department. Everyone couldn't have been more welcoming to me there. There was so much spirit and heart. Such things influence feelings. Oh, and both while being very proud of their heritage hated the word "Israel" being mentioned, not because they hated the country but they felt deeply embarrassed and ashamed about the Israeli government. So given that was North London, I'd say it was pretty typical.

Just to say, once again I totally agree, Lat.

As an aside to hopefully lighten things up a bit, the well-known jewish East End-born saxophonist and club owner Ronnie Scott rarely composed any music. On one of the rare occasions he did, it was a tune which he entitled, "Some of my Best Friends are Blues"

[aeolium]

Beyond that, what should an Israeli person of exceptional sporting ability, and opposition to Israeli government policy, do?

It's a dilemma, Lat, and the same dilemma that at least some of those South African sportsmen in the 1960s had. One of the many reasons I dislike the Olympics (apart from the ginormous cost and bombastic ceremonies) is that those competing are not competing simply as individuals but representatives of nations - it would be far better if they were just individual competitors - 'people of the world', in your phrase.

Still, that's a different debate, and getting somewhat OT for this thread.

[Mr Pee]

Mehta and his musicians came out on stage looking deflated? The continued protests must have demoralised them

The fact that you can give a "thumbs up" to that sentence says it all. We can now see precisely where your priorities lie, and clearly music is way down the list. I find it hard to believe that a contributor to these boards, supposedly a music-lover, should applaud musicians being barracked, heckled, and demoralised by a small minority of troublemakers. It makes me wonder what one earth you are doing contributing to these boards at all.

[MrGongGong]

and on another light note
shame he didn't do this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO6YlkYNJQ

(from about 0.45)

[Ferretfancy]

johnb

I agree with your posting, but there nearly was violence last night. A fight broke out between a protester and ( presumably ) an irate member of the audience, high up in the Rear Circle, and the combatants could easily have fallen over the edge before being pulled apart. As this century moves on, the situation seems doomed deteriorate still further, especially since there is already a severe water shortage in the Middle East which our warming planet will make worse. I dread the possible advent of a Republican in the White House, which cannot be discounted.

[Serial_Apologist]

That said, those composers from Alkan onwards for at least a century who have to any degree at any time revealed in their work some influence of Jewish music hardly did so as representatives of the current Israeli régime...

Indeed, but anyone who heard them as such would have to have their chronology in a bit of a twist!

Off-topic (in all probability), but it has often occurred to me that Mahler and Schoenberg - two composers strongly influenced by Wagner - must surely have been aware of Wagner's anti-semitism; yet this did not prevent them from incorporating Wagner's formal and harmonic advances into their own music. Indeed, to stretch the question way off-topic to include Debussy and his influence, like it or not, it is very hard extirpate the influence of Wagner's music from any accross the board account of 20th century concert music.

S-A

[Serial_Apologist]

It's a dilemma, Lat, and the same dilemma that at least some of those South African sportsmen in the 1960s had. One of the many reasons I dislike the Olympics (apart from the ginormous cost and bombastic ceremonies) is that those competing are not competing simply as individuals but representatives of nations - it would be far better if they were just individual competitors - 'people of the world', in your phrase.

Still, that's a different debate, and getting somewhat OT for this thread.

In terms of inescapable ramifications, it is directly germane, imo.

[ahinton]

Indeed, but anyone who heard them as such would have to have their chronology in a bit of a twist!

...which was precisely my point, really; oh, never mind!...

Off-topic (in all probability), but it has often occurred to me that Mahler and Schoenberg - two composers strongly influenced by Wagner - must surely have been aware of Wagner's anti-semitism; yet this did not prevent them from incorporating Wagner's formal and harmonic advances into their own music. Indeed, to stretch the question way off-topic to include Debussy and his influence, like it or not, it is very hard extirpate the influence of Wagner's music from any accross the board account of 20th century concert music.S-A

Indeed so;
Mahler in particular actually heard Wagner conducting when he (Mahler) was only around 12 years of age and the younger compoer revered the elder one as much as the elder one revered Beethoven. Of course Mahler, Schönberg and other Jewish and non-Jewish composers were well aware of the anti-Semitic sentiments publicly expressed by Wagner and of course this knowledge did nothing to diminish the immense influence brought about by his music, even on French composers such as Debussy. That said, I wouldn't discount the influence of the less overtly anti-Semitic Chopin on Wagner either...

[french frank]

I've had some Reported posts about this thread. There is a general topic here stemming from a current event. Please don't turn it into an excuse for making comments, suppositions or innuendos about people who merely express their opinions. We may state our own opinions and we may agree or disagree with other people's opinions.

If personal comments of that kind continue, I shall close the thread temporarily (briefly) while people think about that.

[amac4165]

Repeat of my posting on another thread - based on question of what happened
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All a bit pathetic really - during the Webern - a group in the upper choir stage right stood unfurled large handkerchiefs which read "free Palestine" and sang "free Palestine ... something la la something" to the Ode to joy. (someone said it was better performance than last night). They were bundled out but not before they had ruined the Webern. The last that was heard of them was thin spinsterish voice singing "free Palestine"

Thereafter there were protests at the start of each piece - mostly in the Circle - I was in the arena and we could see most of it. The first few had flags so were easy to spot - after the Bruch they appeared to have run out of flags - so were harder to spot.

At the start of the second half (which was the most sustained) some guy started in a box on the second tier - no sooner than he was removed other group started in the circle - they were removed and another group set off. By this time we were getting used to it ! It was quite fun watching the stewards and security running around ! A group started off at the start of the last piece - looked like a fight broke out.

Pleased to say nothing in the arena or gallery - well not that I saw (Mehta seemed to gesture thanks to the arena at the end) - although a man was lead away during the second half (security had been clearly looking for someone before hand).

Anyway I am no longer wondering why 66 mins of music was scheduled for 2 hours !

[Don Basilio]

Number 2,000. Blimey. I would like to use this opportunity to ask the BBC to do the following:

And possibly consider not giving credibility to a regime illegally occupying land and depriving a whole population of access to basic necessities.