Trouble at t'Proms

[ahinton]

does the Israel Philharmonic get protests at all it's concerts? if they do, perhaps a name-change to something more neutral might help, it must be frustrating to have all your music-making disrupted................ just a (simplistic) thought.

I don't know for certain, but I suspect that, if it got them at even half of its concerts, we'd all know about it long before now. What kind of name change would you have in mind, anyway? Almost all of the world's major orchestras include in their names the country or (more often) city in which they are based; were just one of them to change itgs name in order to excise any such association, it would surely draw even more attention to itself in that regard than it would by effecting no such change. Should Daniel Barenboim's orchestra be expected to change its name?

There are also other considerations, such as whether or not any such protest as witnessed by last night's Prom audience might have been more vociferous had IPO's programme been devoted to the works of Jewish composers or, even more importantly, Israeli composers - or whether the proportion of that audience that the protesters occupied is of any significance. Some journos somewhere will no doubt seek to forge some kind of parallel with the recent UK city riots if they've not already done so.

Whilst I most certainly do not condone some of Israel's actions, I deplore the very notion that its right to exist as a modern state should be questioned, just as I deplore the absence (so far) of a Palestinian state although, when one is indeed founded (as surely it will be), I don't expect it to be able to have an orchestra of the calibre of IPO any time soon.

With regard to the reference to music and politics, I didn't get the purpose of the reference to Messiaen, by the way...

[ahinton]

What's the difference between boycotting the event and simply not going to the concert? I didn't go yesterday, but in no way was I boycotting the concert.

Good point; millions of concert goers did not attend last night's Prom and there's absolutely no way in which those tiny minority of them whose reasons were those of protest against the régime of the state whose orchestra was performing on that occasion could possibly identify themselves as protesters or draw attention to their views merely by not turning up at RAH.

[scottycelt]

I read some considerable time ago that they could all move en bloc to somewhere in the USA. (Note: I an neither in favour of or against this.)



What's the difference between boycotting the event and simply not going to the concert? I didn't go yesterday, but in no way was I boycotting the concert.

Advertised boycotts are arranged by political groupings for all sorts of events.

Furthermore if enough people wish to protest by staying away from any concert, the hall would be virtually empty or merely host to a rump of 'pro' sympathisers.

In any case, I do wonder if an orchestra from Syria had been performing we would have had the same protesters in the hall?

We may have had a different set, of course, but that would only go to prove that all this has more to do with race and/or political ideology than applying the same moral standards to every country, everywhere ?

It most certainly has little to do with music!

[mercia]

What kind of name change would you have in mind, anyway?

how about the Huberman Philhamonic

[MrGongGong]

That's your opinion, but many others might beg to differ and have a perfect right to attend a purely musical event without political disruption?

I'm not advocating anything
BUT
you can't seriously be suggesting that this is a "purely musical" event ???
any more than the Prom with Rostropovitch in 1968 wasn't an "entirely musical" event

[Mr Pee]

I'm very much with Igor Toronyi-Lalic of the Arts Desk here:-

http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4454:bbc-proms-shaham-israel-philharmonic-orchestra-mehta&Itemid=27

He makes some excellent points I think.

[jean]

does the Israel Philharmonic get protests at all it's concerts? if they do, perhaps a name-change to something more neutral might help...

I seem to remember a similar suggestion when the Jerusalem String Quartet appeared at the Wigmore - it had to be pointed out that the suggested alternative Tel Aviv String Quartet was already taken.

you can't seriously be suggesting that this is a "purely musical" event ???

I certainly would suggest that.

Are you suggesting that a purely musical event with these forces would be an impossibility?

If not, what would such a purely musical event look like?

I think we should remember that despite the calls for it, there is no academic/cultural boycott of Israel in place in this country.

[MrGongGong]

I'm very much with Igor Toronyi-Lalic of the Arts Desk here:-

http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4454:bbc-proms-shaham-israel-philharmonic-orchestra-mehta&Itemid=27

He makes some excellent points I think.

Terribly written pile of bile which ties itself in knots and does the well worn conflation again

I think the problem is that many people don't (think that is !!!)

[Mr Pee]

Terribly written pile of bile which ties itself in knots and does the well worn conflation again

I think the problem is that many people don't (think that is !!!)

No, Mr GG- I think the problem is that many people don't think the same way as you. I am quite sure that Mr Toronyi-Lalic thought very carefully before he wrote the article in question. And if you want to talk about "bile" I think that's what we heard from the yobs at the RAH last night.

[Lateralthinking1]

I agree with every word in that article. On further consideration, I go back to my original view. The people involved are grossly anti-semitic. They were up for a bit of a ruck. The choice of "Ode to Joy" was goading. And it was personalized against individual musicians in a completely unacceptable way. Fascists in denial and/or disguise.

March 21, 1992 | RONE TEMPEST, TIMES STAFF WRITER
"Long live Nice, city of victory!" With these words and the soaring strains of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," France's right-wing political leader Jean-Marie Le Pen ended an emotional three-hour election rally recently in this major resort and retirement city on the French Riviera. Polls show Le Pen's National Front party, Europe's most powerful extreme right-wing movement since World War II, poised for its best showing ever in Sunday's regional elections across France.

[MrGongGong]

you agree with EVERY word ???

and for your information mr Peee

you don't know what I think about this as I haven't said , but I guess you are using the old psychic techniques that you and the prof use when talking about Stockhausen , so you know what I think without me saying !!!

and Jean

as I said before , one can't separate music from its context , cultural or political ........ it's never just "music" !
whether one agrees or disagrees is beside the point
a cursory study of music history would show how music is completely embedded in the culture of the time in which it is created .......... It would be hard to listen to the Shostakovitch 8th quartet (for example) without an awareness of its context

[Ferretfancy]

As those of us in the day queue were about to go in at six o'clock, a couple of young men draped in the Israeli flag handed out leaflets attacking Hamas. I did not see any Palestinian demonstrators at that stage. The first interruption, at the beginning of the Webern, started in the seats to the left and above the orchestra, where a group of about a dozen people unfurled a banner and sang some indecipherable words to the tune of the finale of the Choral Symphony. It took a considerable time for the security staff to reach them.
This was possibly the first time that Webern's Pasacaglia ended with a storm of cheers.

Just as Gil Shaham came on to play the Bruch, another outburst began, this time high up below the Gallery, and again in a quite inaccessible spot for the staff to reach. At one point a middle aged man near me unfurled a large Israeli flag , intending I think to show solidarity to the orchestra. This was in spite of the fact that we had all submitted to a bag search.
After the interval, another storm erupted before the Albeniz, and again before the Rimsky Korsakov, and all the protesters were in different parts of the hall in what was obviously a well planned action.Interestingly, I didn't spot a single one among them who could have been from the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. I would have thought that Surbiton was a more likely bet.

I would think that if a straw poll had been held before any trouble started, at least half the audience would have shown sympathy for the Palestinian cause, including some friends of mine in the Arena who happen to be Israelis, so what purpose did any of this serve? The argument seems to be that the Israeli PO plays to army units. If the LSo did that here there would be no argument. All national orchestras function partly as cultural representatives of their country. That said it's sadly true that the Palestinians have no real voice or status, in spite of all the talks and failures. Israel sees them as born losers, and will continue to do so until the world comes to its senses. It is not a viable state without external support, but if the plug was pulled on the money, both sides would have to come to terms.

After the concert we could all go home to our comfortable homes with good food, heating, education and medical care. Lucky, aren't we ?

[Serial_Apologist]

There are also other considerations, such as whether or not any such protest as witnessed by last night's Prom audience might have been more vociferous had IPO's programme been devoted to the works of Jewish composers or, even more importantly, Israeli composers - or whether the proportion of that audience that the protesters occupied is of any significance. Some journos somewhere will no doubt seek to forge some kind of parallel with the recent UK city riots if they've not already done so.

Also, one can't help wondering if this demonstration would have gone ahead if the programme had been devoted to composers who perished in the Holocaust. Perhaps it's time now to consider such a programme?

[Norfolk Born]

I'm giving serious consideration to a boycott of any premises that sell Jerusalem artichokes. And I shall, of course, turn off the TV on the Last Night when the audience are about to sing THAT setting of THOSE words by Blake.

[Mr Pee]

it's never just "music"

Really? It's NEVER just music?? How sad that you can never enjoy music as an art form without loading it with external connotations.

You obviously listen in a completely different way to me. Just as one example-when I fell in love with the music of Wagner way back when, I had no idea of the controversy surrounding the composer. It was just music. That's what I heard, and that's what I loved. The music transcends any context, whether cultural or political. If you want to drag any external connotations onto it, that's your perogative, but equally one should be able to just listen to the music without burdening it with any excess baggage.

As for the review, yes, I do agree with pretty much every word. And I think your anti- Israeli sentiments are pretty clear, so I don't require much in the way of psychic ability to deduce your viewpoint.