Trouble at t'Proms

[Nick Armstrong]

Please may we ask the Mods to remove it from there, and repaste it here? It's derailing an entirely different discussion there

It's a great account and well worth a read

[Serial_Apologist]

Huh ?!

I like the *idea* of the Proms, caliban. As an idea - allowing people to come to a place such as the RAH and celebrate fine music performed by mostly top-notch orchestras, chanber groups and solo performers at prices cheaper than possibly anywhere else in the world sounds ideal. But the scene and the atmosphere was totally different in the 1960s, when I lived just around the corner, and one met people in the interval or led a group to the pub one knew of, there to discuss matters musical - e.g. what is happening with music today, how do composers compose, what forms are being used etc. - has all but vanished. I have not attended any of the Proms in the RAH this year - though originaly intending to - but even at the Chamber Proms I have been met with blank faces when trying to talk to anyone about the Music, as if I were from another planet. I've found little conviviality, it has all become rather cliquey, as can be seen all the time on here, and there has been no one I have metg with whom I will remain in contact; and here, on the board, most discussion revolves around comparing this performance with that at another venue or on record, which frankly bores me to kingdom come.

I will go on loving the sorts of music represented at/by the Proms, but for me it's back now to jazz, the clubs, pubs and festivals... the welcome, the conviviality, the authenticity and immediacy, the kind of in-depth conversation that has always *belonged* in its circles.

[Al R Gando]

It's a great account and well worth a read

I'm sure. But it belongs here with the rest of this discussion.

[ucanseetheend]

So Pro Israel State supporters make the PROM a political event. Always incredible how people who are Jewish and from another country can go to that region and are not stateless whereas a child born in Palestine has nothing. If Pro Israel state supporters with their flags wanted to make this a political event then those who think Israel is a terrorist state have the right to say so and even as a music lover I say if it disrupts the Prom so be it. And to refer to them as "Nazis" is pretty odious, indeed I could refer to the new Nazi state if I was inclined.

[Richard Tarleton]

I don't think anyone has raised the performance of Louise Fryer on R3? What on earth was going on there? In retrospect she was clearly nervous at the start as she made some slips in her intro.

After the Webern (or Weber as she said beforehand and then corrected herself) she came up with some explanation for the noises off during the performance which was patently untrue - presumably she could see what was going on and could have reported it, she was supposed to be our eyes in the hall. When the uproar started at the start of the Bruch....nothing. Had she fled? It was the studio continuity announcer who told us the broadcast had been suspended. R3 announcers are normally quite happy to tell us what's happening on stage or in the hall, what the soloist is wearing, etc.

Had she been told to say nothing? She may not be a seasoned Middle East war correspondent but she could have said something non-partisan just to let radio listeners know what was going on. A pretty poor show

[PJPJ]

Rather a jesuitical distinction - to say that something sounds like something else is tantamount to saying that it is that something else. & I didn't imagine for a moment that it was a Nazi rally - but the comparison was odious.

When I hear artistic events disrupted they remind me strongly of black- and brown- shirts. It is not tantamount to my believing they are there. I found the situation odious.

[Ariosto]

a couple of things occur to me

it's vital not to conflate being anti zionist or anti the Israeli state with being anti Jewish which is what some apologists want us all to believe
and

it's naive and a bit ignorant to think that music has nothing to do with politics, it always has
people seem to like to refer to it when it's Shostakovitch or Messiaen (maybe because they seem far away ?) but some oppressive regimes have used their culture as a means of trying to become acceptable. I'm reminded of the Indonesian government under Suharto, "how could we be wrong when we have such beautiful music and dance ?" (which they do)

Absolutely right and well said MrGongGong.

[Mandryka]

The dull programme ensured that this one was not on my list of 'to be listened tos'.

However, the protest seems to have misfired: people who plan these things can't seem to understand that they alienate far more people than they encourage. Someone who pays money to attend an event, or sets aside time to listen to a broadcast, will not feel sympathetic if that event is disrupted.

And I'd agree with Chris Newman's comments upthread about the IPO not being a suitable target for this kind of protest.

[Lateralthinking1]

So where would those who are against not only the current Israeli government but the country of Israel per se, while not being anti Jewish, move the entire Israeli population to with its demise?

It is an important question because any answer would cast more light on the full views of those who protested last night.

[PJPJ]

But you did say that it was moronic (which in itself could be offensive) - it was an effective means of protesting about the appearance of the orchestra, which should never have happened. Israel should be subject to political, economic & cultural boycotts, in the same way that apartheid South Africa was.

Whatever the reasons for the protest, I think it arrogant for others to determine, as they did at the Wigmore Hall, too, what I am permitted or not permitted to listen to at home. Perhaps they assume, high-handedly, that it is for my own good or, that should I wish to listen to the JSQ or the IPO, it must mean, obviously, I am some sort of Zionist Fascist and don't deserve to hear the concert, not that I have given any indication of race, religion or political affiliation.

Whether Israel should be subject or not to political, economic & cultural boycotts, hijacking a concert in that moronic fashion is not, in my opinion, the way to get support for official boycotts. Nor do I believe the same tactics used against South Africa thirty to forty years ago will work in the same way now, and against Israel whose existence as a country is under threat.

That's what I feel - I do not intend discussing this further.

[Ventilhorn]

And by the way, before you make assumptions, I am strongly against the protest and similar protests of the kind to that of tonight's Prom - whatever the cause

I have noticed that in some of the posts that I read, the last word of a line gets repeated on the next line. (in this post, the word "whatever" occurred twice - but it does [B]not[/B} do so in the quote above)

This cannot be a fault of the poster. If it were, the same thing would occur in the middle of any line. Is this something that the programmers should look into? It is a fact that one fault can easily lead to others.

And BTW: Why does my computer sometimes lock up completely when attempting to quit the for3 forum, neccesetating a full reboot to get even my mouse to operate? It does not happen with any other internet program.

VH

[scottycelt]

a couple of things occur to me

it's vital not to conflate being anti zionist or anti the Israeli state with being anti Jewish which is what some apologists want us all to believe
and

it's naive and a bit ignorant to think that music has nothing to do with politics, it always has
people seem to like to refer to it when it's Shostakovitch or Messiaen (maybe because they seem far away ?) but some oppressive regimes have used their culture as a means of trying to become acceptable. I'm reminded of the Indonesian government under Suharto, "how could we be wrong when we have such beautiful music and dance ?" (which they do)

That's your opinion, but many others might beg to differ and have a perfect right to attend a purely musical event without political disruption? It's rather insulting to the intelligence of others that they are apparently not being allowed to make up their own minds as to the advisability of attending such a concert or not.

If people felt so strongly about last night's event they could surely have simply boycotted it and encouraged others to do the same if they so wished?

Last night's 'action' was childish and thoroughly selfish and, as others have noted, may well have persuaded some irritated and annoyed punters to turn more pro-Israel, if anything at all.

As S-A is gleefully aware, I switched on just before the replacement recording of the Rimsky and, being rather engrossed in other matters at the time, was blissfully unaware of any 'problem' until there was an eerie silence, before hearing the sombre and apologetic tones of the announcer at the very end ..

[Nick Armstrong]

to say that something sounds like something else is tantamount to saying that it is that something else.

I think that's nonsense, Flossie. Just saying...

[mercia]

does the Israel Philharmonic get protests at all it's concerts? if they do, perhaps a name-change to something more neutral might help, it must be frustrating to have all your music-making disrupted................ just a (simplistic) thought.

[BudgieJane]

So where would those who are against not only the current Israeli government but the country of Israel per se, while not being anti Jewish, move the entire Israeli population to with its demise?

I read some considerable time ago that they could all move en bloc to somewhere in the USA. (Note: I an neither in favour of or against this.)

If people felt so strongly about last night's event they could surely have simply boycotted it and encouraged others to do the same if they so wished?

What's the difference between boycotting the event and simply not going to the concert? I didn't go yesterday, but in no way was I boycotting the concert.