Trouble at t'Proms

[french frank]

I used the word "moronic" instead of another, which would certainly have been moderated.

But not tonight. I'm off to bed.

[PJPJ]

In what sense was it 'moronic'? Is it moronic to protest against manifest injustice perpetrated by an extremely powerful state? To liken the protests to a Nazi rally is offensive to both sides, and also uses the same accusation of ant-semitism that Israel apologists use to stifle any discussion.

There are ways of protesting - disrupting concerts or other functions is dictatorial.

You are misreading the reference to a Nazi rally - whoever posted that remark said it sounded like one, not that it was one.

[Flosshilde]

No 69 - So am I. I don't like it one jot. The far left, with whom I agree on many things, is anti-Jewish.

Rather sweeping - I would say that I was on the left, politically, but I don't think I'm anti-Jewish. Anti-Israel, yes, but I think you do a disservice to many, including Jews who are opposed to the Israeli state, to equate the two. It's a classic false argument used by Israel apologists.

I hope 12 of the remaining 1500 prison places can be saved for those who destroyed this occasion by aiming their bile at the innocent, civilised and talented.

Talented, no doubt. Civilised - what does that mean? Innocent - I'm not so sure. They must realise that such institutions as the orchestra are used by the state as propoganda tools. The very fact that it appears abroad can be used to support claims that Israel has international support (which, unfortunately, it does) for it's actions.

[PJPJ]

But not tonight. I'm off to bed.

I hope not ever. Good night - I am off to bed, too.

[MrGongGong]

a couple of things occur to me

it's vital not to conflate being anti zionist or anti the Israeli state with being anti Jewish which is what some apologists want us all to believe
and

it's naive and a bit ignorant to think that music has nothing to do with politics, it always has
people seem to like to refer to it when it's Shostakovitch or Messiaen (maybe because they seem far away ?) but some oppressive regimes have used their culture as a means of trying to become acceptable. I'm reminded of the Indonesian government under Suharto, "how could we be wrong when we have such beautiful music and dance ?" (which they do)

[Serial_Apologist]

No 69 - So am I. I don't like it one jot. The far left, with whom I agree on many things, is anti-Jewish. While there is a lot of reason to criticise the Israeli government, it is also a convenient tag for those on the far left to "counter-balance" their fairness in regard to everyone else. That is, they have a big bit of human prejudice that needs to go somewhere so it goes there.

Of course, they claim not to be. But musicians can't be responsible for their nationality, any more than someone can be responsible for being black. That is one of the reasons why I make a special point of supporting Israeli musicians as long as they neither talk up the regime or denigrate their own Jewishness.

I hope 12 of the remaining 1500 prison places can be saved for those who destroyed this occasion by aiming their bile at the innocent, civilised and talented.

Well a lot of true colo[u]rs are being revealed tonight!

So, the far left is anti-Jewish. It never was when I was involved in it (1973-1985), but having praised you to another off line in a separate email with someone whom many on this board now have issues as a paradigm of authenticity, citing your contributions elsewhere, I am sure you will be able to substantiate that charge.

If I were to show you any photograph of my mother, you would be hard pressed to doubt it if I were to say she was jewish. Many family secrets only came out on pain of alchohol, and I wouldn't mind betting this was one. If it turned out I were jewish I would acknowledge it, just as I would were I gay. If I am jewish, and if jew-baiting and making of snide comments werer ever to become again comonplace, as they were in my childhood, I would be a likely victim and willing to die for it, this country, in many regards the best in the world, would not being worth living in, ever again.

[Lateralthinking1]

But are people anti-Israel or anti the Israeli government as it is? If it is the former, I'm not with them.

serial_apologist - Thank you for your kind comments. This one can get me into hot water. It has done before so I won't prolong it. I feel a bit confused by your post. However, I accept it was a sweeping statement on my part. I should have said "some on the far left seem to be anti-Jewish". Among those, I feel that there is prejudice. I have also changed the phrase "many things" to "several things" in terms of any agreement with the far left because that represents my position more clearly. I never was of the far left. I used to be in the centre ground. These days it is a bit of everything but not a lot of what I see in any political grouping.

We are C of E but there is good reason to believe that there was Jewishness in my family somewhere along the line. I feel an affinity. I also like the music. It worries me that anti-semitism, as it is commonly meant, could ever again prevail.

[Flosshilde]

There are ways of protesting - disrupting concerts or other functions is dictatorial.

You are misreading the reference to a Nazi rally - whoever posted that remark said it sounded like one, not that it was one.

Rather a jesuitical distinction - to say that something sounds like something else is tantamount to saying that it is that something else. & I didn't imagine for a moment that it was a Nazi rally - but the comparison was odious.

But you did say that it was moronic (which in itself could be offensive) - it was an effective means of protesting about the appearance of the orchestra, which should never have happened. Israel should be subject to political, economic & cultural boycotts, in the same way that apartheid South Africa was.

[aeolium]

it's naive and a bit ignorant to think that music has nothing to do with politics, it always has

I quite agree, MrGG. I expect the protesters would compare themselves with the protesters who disrupted sporting events involving visiting South African teams in the 1960s - those protesters also attracted a lot of criticism, on the grounds that "sport has nothing to do with politics". I think Petrushka was right - that this concert was going to be a target for disruption should have been foreseen by the BBC management.

[Serial_Apologist]

Was it the case that there were only 40 protesters in the hall, can somebody tell me? From the massive vocal "response" from the audience I heard before the second cut-off, I have to say I am glad I was not at this Prom: either among the protesters or in the audience. I shall never attend a Prom concert again.

[Serial_Apologist]

But are people anti-Israel or anti the Israeli government as it is? If it is the former, I'm not with them. serial_apologist - Thank you for your kind comments generally. This one can get me into hot water. It has done before so I won't prolong it. I accept it was a sweeping statement on my part. I should have said "some on the far left seem to be anti-Jewish".

We are C of E but there is good reason to believe that there was Jewishness in my family somewhere along the line. I feel an affinity.

OK man. Sorry I overreacted, but I'm feeling more than usually wound up over all this, since having been taken for a fool; not by your good self, I hasten to add.

Best wishes

[Nick Armstrong]

I shall never attend a Prom concert again.

Huh ?!

[Anna]

Eye witness account from amac on another thread

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?3063-Can-you-get-to-the-Proms&p=79960#post79960

[Stunsworth]

The far left, with whom I agree on several things, is anti-Jewish. While there is a lot of reason to criticise the Israeli government...

You are confusing two things. It's possible to be on the left and Jewish - Trotsky for example - and it's possible to be an Israeli citizen and not be Jewish. As you say, there's a lot to criticise Israel for, that isn't the same as being anti-semitic. Just as it's possible not to hate all Americans while not being happy what their government does in their name.

[Al R Gando]

Eye witness account from amac on another thread
http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...9960#post79960

Please may we ask the Mods to remove it from there, and repaste it here? It's derailing an entirely different discussion there