The Sleep Thread

[Petrushka]

I am aware that we are supposed to get at least 7 hours sleep per night, preferably 8 hours. I only manage that occasionally - so presumably that will reduce my life expectancy - but it can't be helped. I quite often get up early ish - around 6am - and then stay up and only get to sleep around midnight. Sometimes I wake up at 3am or thereabouts and can't get back to sleep so I do other things for a few hours then try to go back to bed - hopefully till 9am or later. Ideally I should do more exercise - I find that if I do a modest walk in the afternoon or evening then I am more likely to sleep longer without waking up - except for the inevitable - during the night.

Certain times of the year are harder. If there's a lot of pollen of various types around, then I sometimes have real difficulty during the nights and have to take antihistamines - or even use a nasal spray.

I thought that the '8 hours a night' thing had been debunked and that we are told to pay more attention to our body clock? You don't say what time you normally retire for the night. I'm wondering from what you say if you are going too early. I generally feel ready for bed at around midnight but after the usual preparations it's usually closer to 1am. I get up at either 7.30 or 8.00. Going to bed at 11.00 and getting up at 6.30 when I was working felt completely wrong.

[Nick Armstrong]

I thought that the '8 hours a night' thing had been debunked and that we are told to pay more attention to our body clock?

I think so. Since retiring, my body clock has reverted to what seems to be my default setting for some reason, which is basically US east coast time : sleep occurring between 3am and 12 midday (I guess the most common pattern is 7 hours between 4 and 11 or so). I manage to structure life so this is fine (though the occasional morning commitment throws a spanner in the works - but rarely). Plus I love an early evening nap before supper if nothing else is happening: give me a Peter Wimsey episode or similar on Radio 4extra via Sounds on the iPad, horizontal in the darkened bedroom, and I’m off within 10 minutes usually, waking with the concluding music - Sounds making it easy to relisten to what my conscious mind missed ).

As they say: works for me (and I’ve raised it a couple of times at regular health checks - the medical view was that if you’re getting enough sleep to feel good, that’s all that matters)

[kernelbogey]

...As they say: works for me (and I’ve raised it a couple of times at regular health checks - the medical view was that if you’re getting enough sleep to feel good, that’s all that matters)...

I was reflecting on this thread when awake at about 4 a.m.... I'm convinced that our management of our sleep is in a high degree individual: like most of our behaviour (as an individual) a combination of genetic factors and our environmental learning. The notion of a 'norm' to which we should aspire is unhelpful. Work-life balance has been hugely influenced by industrialisation, and the more natural patterns some are describing here (including, tellingly, naps at different times of day) appear to me to be healthy.

(I then drifted in and out of sleep to TTN....)

[Dave2002]

I thought that the '8 hours a night' thing had been debunked and that we are told to pay more attention to our body clock? You don't say what time you normally retire for the night. I'm wondering from what you say if you are going too early. I generally feel ready for bed at around midnight but after the usual preparations it's usually closer to 1am. I get up at either 7.30 or 8.00. Going to bed at 11.00 and getting up at 6.30 when I was working felt completely wrong.

There is serious work which suggests that longevity is reduced - quite significantly - if we don't get around 8 hours sleep. However it is clearly possible to have less sleep - though whether that should be a regular thing - really not sure. I think that people who are regularly getting less than 6 hours sleep a night are stoking up problems.

[Bryn]

I think there is serious work which suggests that longevity is reduced - quite significantly - if we don't get around 8 hours sleep. However it is clearly possible to have less sleep - though whether that should be a regular thing - really not sure. I think that people who are regularly getting less than 6 hours sleep a night are stoking up problems.

This here research, does it compare total waking hours for those who get at least 8 hours sleep a night with those who get rather less? That would seem to be a fairly important consideration, to me.

[french frank]

There is serious work which suggests that longevity is reduced - quite significantly - if we don't get around 8 hours sleep. However it is clearly possible to have less sleep - though whether that should be a regular thing - really not sure. I think that people who are regularly getting less than 6 hours sleep a night are stoking up problems.

I saw that, but the number of hours I sleep is out of my control (I either go to bed early and take 2-3 hours to go to sleep, or late and wake up at the normal time (about 7am or earlier). I go by what has already been suggested: if I feel refreshed, I get up; if I feel heavy and lethargic, I stay in bed a bit longer and hope it will wear off. I never sleep during the day. Ever. But at this stage in my life the worry of having my longevity reduced significantly is not a problem

[richardfinegold]

There is serious work which suggests that longevity is reduced - quite significantly - if we don't get around 8 hours sleep. However it is clearly possible to have less sleep - though whether that should be a regular thing - really not sure. I think that people who are regularly getting less than 6 hours sleep a night are stoking up problems.

That research can be safely ignored because most of it doesn't control for the presence of Sleep Apnea. People with this condition sleep less and have shorter life spans as noted previously due to increased rates of hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and arythmias, such as Sudden Death while sleeping.

[Bryn]

That research can be safely ignored because most of it doesn't control for the presence of Sleep Apnea. People with this condition sleep less and have shorter life spans as noted previously due to increased rates of hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and arythmias, such as Sudden Death while sleeping.

Something that should be (maybe was) picked up on during peer review, surely?

[Jonathan]

No siesta for Jonathan?

I think my boss might object if I snoozed off in the office!

[oddoneout]

There is serious work which suggests that longevity is reduced - quite significantly - if we don't get around 8 hours sleep. However it is clearly possible to have less sleep - though whether that should be a regular thing - really not sure. I think that people who are regularly getting less than 6 hours sleep a night are stoking up problems.

Reports such as that I do my best to avoid reading. I have never slept well* or got the "recommended" amount of sleep, and now that my various health issues actively interfere even more I am even further away from achieving the gold standard. I can do without yet more reasons to worry about what lies ahead. There has never been a consistent pattern to the not sleeping and about 30 years ago I decided to just accept it happened, despite doing the various "right" things, and try not to spend time and energy worrying about it.

*I well remember as a child on family camping trips long periods spent listening to everyone else in the land of nod and wishing I could be the same. At best I was bored senseless, at worst(and quite often as we camped out of season a lot) I was cold, so even less able to drop off.

[Dave2002]

That research can be safely ignored because most of it doesn't control for the presence of Sleep Apnea. People with this condition sleep less and have shorter life spans as noted previously due to increased rates of hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and arythmias, such as Sudden Death while sleeping.

Ah - so you mean that the population of those who do actually suffer from sleep apnea should be ignored? I don't think so - but what I think you are suggesting is that "normal" people who don't have sleep apnea are more likely to have reasonable longevity even if they don't sleep for a minimum of 7 hours each 24 hour period.

[Nick Armstrong]

One thing I’ve become aware of since my mid-50s is how restorative to the muscles sleep is. My leg muscles are often what tell me whether I’ve had enough sleep or not.

I realised this during years when I was involved in motor sport (in a non-racing capacity!) - very early starts plus days spent walking and standing round race-tracks would leave me dead tired in the leg and feet department: it was astonishing how a lengthy night’s sleep or two after returning home seemed quite literally to repair my legs - I’d sometimes have a ten-hour sleep and the difference from feeling achey and half-crippled from the waist down, to feeling spring-chicken-like afterwards seemed practically miraculous.

[french frank]

One thing I’ve become aware of since my mid-50s is how restorative to the muscles sleep is.

I don't very often suffer from headaches but occasionally I get a migraine-like headache and nothing by way of paracetamol/aspirin or whatever will shift it. If I can get a short sleep in it seems miraculously to dispel it completely.

what I think you are suggesting is that "normal" people who don't have sleep apnea are more likely to have reasonable longevity even if they don't sleep for a minimum of 7 hours each 24 hour period.

That's how I understood it. That the reduced longevity was basically caused by the 'underlying conditions' which caused some insomnia?

[Dave2002]

Something that should be (maybe was) picked up on during peer review, surely?

Why we sleep, by Matthew Walker.

I would expect so - see https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/matthew-p-walker

[BBMmk2]

One thing I’ve become aware of since my mid-50s is how restorative to the muscles sleep is. My leg muscles are often what tell me whether I’ve had enough sleep or not.

I realised this during years when I was involved in motor sport (in a non-racing capacity!) - very early starts plus days spent walking and standing round race-tracks would leave me dead tired in the leg and feet department: it was astonishing how a lengthy night’s sleep or two after returning home seemed quite literally to repair my legs - I’d sometimes have a ten-hour sleep and the difference from feeling achey and half-crippled from the waist down, to feeling spring-chicken-like afterwards seemed practically miraculous.

Amazing what the power of sleep can do, in healing our body’s ills. I have b/p problems, now, all originally coming from my chemo sessions, I had, and some days I’d feel quite rough. I do my b/p, or MrsBBM does, and it would read for example, 80/50! No wonder I was rough. Bed rest, for me! After that, I feel back to normal!