Smartly metering

[french frank]

I would advise you to think long and hard before going all-electric: electricity is about five times the price per kWh of gas. Your total so far today is £3.55, but if you had gone all-electric that total would be over £14

If money were the only thing that mattered, I would shop around for a cheaper supplier to begin with!

(At best, assuming your boiler to be 80% efficient this could reduce to over £11,)

But there are other 'costs' involved in having a gas boiler. At this moment, it isn't clear what a satisfactory alternative would be. Back to my old two-bar electric fire up in the attic?

[Andrew Slater]

But doesn't that assume the price differential will remain as it currently is?

Of course: but I tend to base my decisions on actual figures (and projections, if announced and firm), rather than what might happen.

What's to say the price of gas won't rise either directly by political manipulation, or more unpredictably by market forces and reduce the gap.

The differential may well decrease in the future, but of course we don't know that. Until a few years ago the ratio was 3:1 rather than 5:1. I believe that the charges to pay for the wind and solar subsidies were all loaded onto the electricity tariffs, but there have been mutterings that this will have to change to make heat pumps more viable. However, it's extremely unlikely that the ratio will change sufficiently to put the gas price above that of electricity in the near future.

My gas CH is very much a blunt weapon in terms of decent control, even though it has the usual standard programmer/controller, plus TVRs so I don't think it is as economical compared to electric as might be assumed, and not as economical as I think it should be.

Of course a boiler isn't 100% efficient, which is why I added the rider that with a boiler of efficiency 80% the all-electric total would be above £11, rather than £14. A very old boiler would be about 60% efficient, and if ff's boiler is such the equivalent electricity cost would be nearly £9 - still significantly higher than the current total of £3.55.

I haven't allowed for Economy 7 (or 10) in my calculation, as I don't know the rates. They are unlikely to be as much as half the standard tariff, but if they were half, the £14, £11 and £9 figures would reduce to £7, £6 and £5 - still significantly above £3.55. And the daytime rates would probably be higher than for a standard tariff.

Any change to all-electric definitely needs careful research and thought.

[Andrew Slater]

If money were the only thing that mattered, I would shop around for a cheaper supplier to begin with!

mmm, but I doubt that you would find such a difference between two suppliers' tariffs. On the other hand you would be helping out with the green subsidies! (That differential would frighten me to death!)

But there are other 'costs' involved in having a gas boiler. At this moment, it isn't clear what a satisfactory alternative would be. Back to my old two-bar electric fire up in the attic?

Of course if the boiler needs expensive repairs or replacement, then there are other considerations - I was just pointing out like-for-like running costs. Alternatives would probably be storage heaters or an air (or ground) source heat pump (of course neither is cheap, and currently up to 30% of the electricity used would be produced from gas at a maximum efficiency of 50-60%, so not as green as it might at first appear).

[Cockney Sparrow]

I switched to my Winter Hive Schedule recently (warm bedroom...),

I also have a Hive control system very convenient when it works (in pre pandemic days, I would switch the heating on as I sat down on the train home after the theatre/opera/concert. However its dropped the wi-fi connection so often I haven't been able rely on it to control lights (via remote controlled 13 amp power sockets) when we are away on holiday - used as an anti burglary device. It took recently two weeks to get British Gas to come and sort out our boiler's reluctance to stay on for more than 45 minutes, which they traced to the Hive thermostat - and replaced it.

However, within 24 hours Hive was disconnected again and wouldn't reconnect, so it was on/off push button control near the boiler, whilst I again wait 2 weeks for an engineer to visit. Poor service but at least maintenance costs and parts are contained within the service plan. Pending the next visit I've tried to reconnect the Hive a couple of times, only for it to drop out again.

However - I came upon a tip, searching on the Hive website - to ensure the Hive Hub (wi fi transmitter to the control box) was a minimum of 30cm away from the Router and any other wi-fi equipment. Mine was 5cm from the Router casing - connecting with a longer ethernet cable and placing it a good metre away has given me uninterrupted wi-fi/app control for a week now. Numerous calls to their help service hadn't suggested this remedy and fingers crossed, its seems to be steady.

As to smart meters, I've fended them off, until I can be sure I get the latest generation. But in any case I have 2 flexible pipe connectors to the gas meter and solar panels on the electricity system which apparently rules them out. For meter readings, my offspring suggested the use of a selfie stick and mobile phone camera, which together with a strong torch eliminates the contortions needed to get a reading.

[french frank]

mmm, but I doubt that you would find such a difference between two suppliers' tariffs. On the other hand you would be helping out with the green subsidies! (That differential would frighten me to death!)

If I'm honest, I don't think my current supplier is that much more expensive, although 100% of the electricity it supplies to the grid comes from renewables. All the gas is offset by funding energy saving projects. Sometimes you have to put your money where your principles are

Of course if the boiler needs expensive repairs or replacement, then there are other considerations - I was just pointing out like-for-like running costs.

Though I was thinking of the cost to the environment of gas boilers, rather than the cost to me.

[jayne lee wilson]

I also have a Hive control system very convenient when it works (in pre pandemic days, I would switch the heating on as I sat down on the train home after the theatre/opera/concert. However its dropped the wi-fi connection so often I haven't been able rely on it to control lights (via remote controlled 13 amp power sockets) when we are away on holiday - used as an anti burglary device. It took recently two weeks to get British Gas to come and sort out our boiler's reluctance to stay on for more than 45 minutes, which they traced to the Hive thermostat - and replaced it.

However, within 24 hours Hive was disconnected again and wouldn't reconnect, so it was on/off push button control near the boiler, whilst I again wait 2 weeks for an engineer to visit. Poor service but at least maintenance costs and parts are contained within the service plan. Pending the next visit I've tried to reconnect the Hive a couple of times, only for it to drop out again.

However - I came upon a tip, searching on the Hive website - to ensure the Hive Hub (wi fi transmitter to the control box) was a minimum of 30cm away from the Router and any other wi-fi equipment. Mine was 5cm from the Router casing - connecting with a longer ethernet cable and placing it a good metre away has given me uninterrupted wi-fi/app control for a week now. Numerous calls to their help service hadn't suggested this remedy and fingers crossed, its seems to be steady.

As to smart meters, I've fended them off, until I can be sure I get the latest generation. But in any case I have 2 flexible pipe connectors to the gas meter and solar panels on the electricity system which apparently rules them out. For meter readings, my offspring suggested the use of a selfie stick and mobile phone camera, which together with a strong torch eliminates the contortions needed to get a reading.

If you mean SMETS2, this has been the standard fitting for some time now, important as it is compatible with Eco7 and is a better design generally.

No problems with Hive here. Smart screen in the kitchen, Hive control in the next room....BT Hub further away again.
You can choose different target temperatures for different zones in the house if you want, then they switch off when they reach that and come back on when it drops below.

In the current weather I tend to set it high, of course. The downstairs snug is currently 18.5, target 20, so this (and other rooms) will stay on until I change the instructions...

[Andrew Slater]

although 100% of the electricity it supplies to the grid comes from renewables.

But if you were to switch to 100% electricity (together with others) I doubt that this would be sustainable (at the moment). Someone would probably have to burn 'your' gas elsewhere to produce the extra electricity and it would probably be less efficient overall than your boiler, meaning worse environmental effects.

[french frank]

But if you were to switch to 100% electricity (together with others) I doubt that this would be sustainable (at the moment).

Not if all their customers switched, no. But I don't think that would be likely to happen. Though if they had more customers they could invest in more generating capacity themselves than they currently have: wind, hydro and solar.

[Vile Consort]

I got smart meters last year but only the electricity meter works. EdF don't seem to be interested in getting the gas meter working: presumably the fact that there is one in my house has ticked the necessary box, whether it works or not. This is annoying because it's the gas that costs me a fortune heating this draughty 200+ year old former farmhouse out on the moors. I expect the Brontes could see it from the vicarage before all the trees grew around it.

[Pianoman]

Why would I want to pay, say, £60 every month, effectively paying EON upfront? Much better to pay less in summer to help pay for the winter.

Blimey, what I wouldn't give to be paying £60 per month...since being 'bailed out' by British Gas I have seen my bill actually increase by more than that monthly. It's back top thicker jumpers for us unfortunately...

[jayne lee wilson]

Common misconception that DD means paying the same every month, all year round, It doesn't. Scottish Power & others adjust it quarterly according to your usage and credit/debit status through the year. With a Smart Meter this adjustment should be more accurate again.

[kernelbogey]

How very, very exciting a lovely civilised discussionx on the evolving world of energy supply.

What do we want?

More warmth!

What do we want?

Lower bills!

What do we want?

Less CO2!

When do we want it...?

Right now!

[antongould]

Common misconception that DD means paying the same every month, all year round, It doesn't. Scottish Power & others adjust it quarterly according to your usage and credit/debit status through the year. With a Smart Meter this adjustment should be more accurate again.

It is indeed a quite common misconception - I have had to explain recently to a couple of Lady Gould’s friends that being on a fixed deal doesn’t mean you can use as much as you like and your monthly payment will not change ……

A dilemma for current suppliers is that it is widely recognised that price cap tariff rates will rise dramatically from 1 April 2022 so how do they build this into the monthly payment reassessments they are currently carrying out ….. ?????

[Andrew Slater]

Not if all their customers switched, no. But I don't think that would be likely to happen. Though if they had more customers they could invest in more generating capacity themselves than they currently have: wind, hydro and solar.

I suppose it might push things along a bit quicker (not sure about hydro though - I don't think there's much scope for additional hydro capacity - tidal would be better), but it's likely to be a very small effect. My view is that gas will be phased out soon and replacements put in place, and anything we do individually won't have much of an effect, apart from costing us individually more money.

I'm probably stating the obvious to point out that when it's dark and the wind isn't blowing, your electricity supply will be dependent on gas, even if your supplier offsets it with renewable energy at other times, as there's very little storage in the system.

I suppose real smart meters would indicate to the user the instantaneous sources of electrical generation (and possibly also gas) so that the user could make a decision to disconnect when they didn't like the look of the generation / supply mix, and even better, automatically disconnect the supplies (or at least non-essential loads) according to user preference settings.

I've had smart meters for about three years. When I switch suppliers there's always a hiatus while the new supplier attempts to connect to them - apparently the computer network which connects them is somewhat complicated and seems to have been cobbled together, rather than designed. Even the method of transmission from meter to network differs in different parts of the country - I think the mobile phone system is used in the south and a conventional radio system in the north! I only use my remote unit to read the meters - which is necessary as the gas meter runs on a battery and to read it directly needs a button to be operated, with the risk of reducing the battery life. If I leave the remote unit on for very long, it usually 'locks up', displaying only the gas information for the current day.

You can see the current electrical energy supply source for the country here.

[antongould]

I suppose it might push things along a bit quicker (not sure about hydro though - I don't think there's much scope for additional hydro capacity - tidal would be better), but it's likely to be a very small effect. My view is that gas will be phased out soon and replacements put in place, and anything we do individually won't have much of an effect, apart from costing us individually more money.

I'm probably stating the obvious to point out that when it's dark and the wind isn't blowing, your electricity supply will be dependent on gas, even if your supplier offsets it with renewable energy at other times, as there's very little storage in the system.

I suppose real smart meters would indicate to the user the instantaneous sources of electrical generation (and possibly also gas) so that the user could make a decision to disconnect when they didn't like the look of the generation / supply mix, and even better, automatically disconnect the supplies (or at least non-essential loads) according to user preference settings.

I've had smart meters for about three years. When I switch suppliers there's always a hiatus while the new supplier attempts to connect to them - apparently the computer network which connects them is somewhat complicated and seems to have been cobbled together, rather than designed. Even the method of transmission from meter to network differs in different parts of the country - I think the mobile phone system is used in the south and a conventional radio system in the north! I only use my remote unit to read the meters - which is necessary as the gas meter runs on a battery and to read it directly needs a button to be operated, with the risk of reducing the battery life. If I leave the remote unit on for very long, it usually 'locks up', displaying only the gas information for the current day.

You can see the current electrical energy supply source for the country here.

Yes Andrew the whole implementation has been a massive shambles typical of the Industry post privatisation ….. if I can swear everyone here to secrecy my gas meter has actually taken to stopping for days at a time …. That is the actual meter not the display unit …. never in my 40 years in the sector have I come across such a thing …. Stopped meters yes and meters running fast or slow but never stopping and then starting again. Just as I was saying my goodbyes I was hearing whispers about meters being purchased from overseas that were, even then, causing concern. I wonder how long it will be before EDF start asking sensible questions ….. ????