Wood burning

[Dave2002]

If we stay at home and burn a ton of logs over Christmas - as we have just started to do - it's now getting toasty warm and cosy - is that more damaging for the planet than if we take a flight to somewhere hot - if we could - such as Cuba - for January?

[french frank]

If we stay at home and burn a ton of logs over Christmas - as we have just started to do - it's now getting toasty warm and cosy - is that more damaging for the planet than if we take a flight to somewhere hot - if we could - such as Cuba - for January?

Other solutions available. As the weather gets colder, I turn the heating DOWN and add one more layer of clothing. A full complement would be: T-shirt, thin microfleece mountaineering layer, slightly thicker microfleece top, padded bodywarmer, woollen pullover, thicker fleece jacket, overcoat. I've never had to wear all of them yet Limit the hours of woodburning. I see no reason to burn 'a ton of logs'.

PS. I forgot the mountaineering fleece longjohns to go under jeans.

[Dave2002]

Other solutions available. As the weather gets colder, I turn the heating DOWN and add one more layer of clothing. A full complement would be: T-shirt, thin microfleece mountaineering layer, slightly thicker microfleece top, padded bodywarmer, woollen pullover, thicker fleece jacket, overcoat. I've never had to wear all of them yet Limit the hours of woodburning. I see no reason to burn 'a ton of logs'.

PS. I forgot the mountaineering fleece longjohns to go under jeans.

We probably won't burn a ton - but we will burn some. My question was to see what the comparison would be - for example burning logs until the end of February, versus taking a long distance flight to somewhere warm for a month. Incidentally - it is possible to go to Cuba - though perhaps not advised.

[ardcarp]

I think the emissions of a jet airliner with, say 80 people aboard, all bound across the Atlantic, would far outweigh the modest carbon dioxide output of 80 people (many probably from family groups) burning some logs over Christmas. A further consideration is that logs come from trees that have recently absorbed atmospheric carbon and are replaceable. Airline fuel is using fossil-fuel carbon laid down over millions of years, and is not replaceable on anything like the scale.

[Dave2002]

I think the emissions of a jet airliner with, say 80 people aboard, all bound across the Atlantic, would far outweigh the modest carbon dioxide output of 80 people (many probably from family groups) burning some logs over Christmas. A further consideration is that logs come from trees that have recently absorbed atmospheric carbon and are replaceable. Airline fuel is using fossil-fuel carbon laid down over millions of years, and is not replaceable on anything like the scale.

See https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-do-in-a-year and also

https://www.kaltimber.com/blog/2017/6/19/how-much-co2-is-stored-in-1-kg-of-wood

On the face of it burning wood might appear to be worse, but as you note the heat might be shared between several family members. Also, it's not likely that many people would actually burn a ton of wood over the winter periods - though some might.
It's debatable that the trees are replaceable as the rate of use probably exceeds the rate of new growth. As I mentioned before, some supplies come from other countries, such as Lithuania, and the transport also contributes to the CO2 associated with a ton of wood.

[oddoneout]

The focus of the wood burning issue in this country seems to have shifted rather more to the particulate emissions than the CO2, which adds another layer to the equivalence issue. It all gets so convoluted!
A family member facing winter weather health problems escaped to warmer climes for 6 weeks for several years and felt that in the long run avoiding the oil and woodburning that staying at home for the same period would involve balanced out the longhaul flight. The stays also involved charity work, training courses and health treatments which were also put on the credit side.

[french frank]

The focus of the wood burning issue in this country seems to have shifted rather more to the particulate emissions than the CO2

And the resulting respiratory problems. As far as the individual is concerned, like many other areas, it depends on "how much?". What I burn now is half of what the older stove burnt, plus the emissions are lower through the newer technology, plus I've reduced the hours I have any heating at all (visitors have commented on how cold the the house is but I've got used to it). How high do you keep your central heating? How long do you have it on for?

The only calculation you can make is with your own personal usage. Will you in your home create more PM2.5/CO2 than if you were to fly off to (as Dave mentioned it) Cuba? And how much of your responsibility do you take with you, wherever you're living? If the only consideration is how much healthier, more comfortable, you'll be in Cuba - off you go!

[oddoneout]

And the resulting respiratory problems. As far as the individual is concerned, like many other areas, it depends on "how much?". What I burn now is half of what the older stove burnt, plus the emissions are lower through the newer technology, plus I've reduced the hours I have any heating at all (visitors have commented on how cold the the house is but I've got used to it). How high do you keep your central heating? How long do you have it on for?

The only calculation you can make is with your own personal usage. Will you in your home create more PM2.5/CO2 than if you were to fly off to (as Dave mentioned it) Cuba? And how much of your responsibility do you take with you, wherever you're living? If the only consideration is how much healthier, more comfortable, you'll be in Cuba - off you go!

Re personal audits I've just remembered the trend for OAPs to toddle off to the Costas for the winter, as the cost of living was so much lower due in large part to more clement weather meaning worry about winter heating was removed. The hotels were happy to have the business, the OAPs were happy to be warm and fed and avoid the winter weather and ailments. Covid obviously has put a stop to that but presumably Brexit has and will have a more enduring effect. It does put another equation into the mix though. Shorthaul flights are the worst kind, but against that is the reduction in emissions from winter heating, and reduction in costs from dealing with the health problems (NHS and social care overload) caused by inadequate income for fuel and food.

[gradus]

Can anybody buy logs by weight these days, it used to be possible to get a weighbridge ticket with a load but that died out 30 years ago round these parts when the dead elms ran out. On line today logs come by volume eg 1.2cu mtrs., with the actual weight seldom if ever shown.
We don't find it difficult to get through 1.2 cu.mtrs in about 5 weeks if we keep the log burner going ie topped-up, from say 4pm to 11pm. If we use the open fire too probably 4 weeks max.
I admire frenchie's stoicism but won't try to emulate.

[Dave2002]

Shorthaul flights are the worst kind, but against that is the reduction in emissions from winter heating, and reduction in costs from dealing with the health problems (NHS and social care overload) caused by inadequate income for fuel and food.

What evidence is there that shorthaul flights are worse than others? Typically if I recall what I checked out around 10 or more years ago, flying a thousand miles or so in many planes was roughly equivalent to driving the same distance in a medium sized car - by one person. Of course the comparisons don't quite work if we compare moving several people by car. Aircraft have become slightly more fuel efficient over the last decade or two, but not by very large factors. One adverse thing about short haul flights compared with longer ones is that the take-offs probably use more fuel, but against that there is the fact that with some, or indeed many, long haul flights, taking large aircraft long distances with few passengers is very wasteful - and happens sometimes. I once flew to California on a small 747 (there are some small ones) but I think IIRC there were fewer than 20 of us passengers on board. Should I count that against myself?

The magnificent A380s are now being scrapped by some airlines because even allowing for the low per passenger fuel consumption if the planes are full, there isn't enough justification for them in terms of volume of traffic on many routes.

[french frank]

I admire frenchie's stoicism but won't try to emulate.

I think back to my childhood and youth. We lived in a small village and I think I may have had an inflated idea of how rich we were because my friends were all farmer's or ag lab's children, but we had a slightly remote house (now lived in by a member of one of the rock bands - more, I suspect, for its remoteness than its palatial qualities). There was no central heating (what's that?), there was a smallish coal fire in the 'family' room, and one in the kitchen that wasn't used much unless someone wanted to spend the evening there (like my grandfather having an evening doze).

In my teens we had a town house (8 bedrooms in all), still no central heating, one coal fire in the living room and my brother and I both had one-bar electric fires for our bedrooms (for getting up in the morning and doing prep in the evenings).

When I went to university in Aberdeen (post grad), mother bought a modern flat - and had CH for the first time. As I stayed in Aberdeen to work I bought a cottage up there - no CH, one coal fire for the evenings (and never a sight of an electric blanket!).

Just thinking back to those days makes me realise this can be done without much discomfort. If there's a good reason (and I think there is).

[ardcarp]

I think sometimes that all the (very proper) anxiety about mankind's warming up of the planet would be eclipsed by a very major volcanic eruption which would render permanent winter conditions to our fragile Earth.

[Dave2002]

I think sometimes that all the (very proper) anxiety about mankind's warming up of the planet would be eclipsed by a very major volcanic eruption which would render permanent winter conditions to our fragile Earth.

I don't think that would happen, though previous volcanic eruptions have seemingly caused several years of cold weather afterwards. Flows of water in the oceans could also change, which could counter the effects of global warming currently thought to be due to greenhouse gases produced both naturally and by industrial processes. At the moment it doesn't seem likely that there'll be a sudden change in the upwards trajectory of climate change temperature wise - but it could potentially happen.

[ardcarp]

I don't think that would happen, though previous volcanic eruptions have seemingly caused several years of cold weather afterwards.

On the balance of chances, it's unlikely I admit, but a massive (and I mean massive) volcanic eruption could happen anytime. Happy Christmas everyone!

[Dave2002]

On the balance of chances, it's unlikely I admit, but a massive (and I mean massive) volcanic eruption could happen anytime. Happy Christmas everyone!

It would have to be truly massive. There have been recorded instances of very large eruptions followed by several years of bad weather throughout most of the world. To cause permanent winter conditions an eruption would have to be more massive than anything in history.