HOW do we HELP and CHANGE the CHILDREN of the INNERCITIES

[BetweenTheStaves]

I don't expect you will see this as your are in passover mode.

Now you have had your little rant ..... but I daresay you were foaming at the mouth a bit when you wrote it.

....

Finished?

Re solicitor's advertising. This was not permitted by law until the last Labour party passed a new Act.

[Lateralthinking1]

BTS - On 1, I once lived next door to a young female prison officer. The prison where she was employed is one known nationally as being for those guilty of the most grave offences. I bumped into her one Christmas Eve and asked her if she was looking forward to the main day. "Not really" she said "I am just about to make a sandwich for tomorrow as I will be working". "Don't you get a Christmas meal there?" I asked. She replied "Oh no, those are only made for the prisoners".

I am not sure that I would begrudge any prisoner a Christmas meal. However, this example does say something about this country's peculiarities. I would agree with a prison regime that said no to Xbox etc and yes to only minimal TV. Privileges to be earned and, yes, basic grub only. And yes to spending more money on trying to rehabilitate those who want (and can prove by results) that they want to change. I am also against the presumption that if someone does what is required, his or her terms should be shortened. I would instead like to see terms reduced only for exceptionally good behaviour.

On 2, no comment. I just don't know enough about the Sentencing Guidelines Council. On 3, yes perhaps have jackets as you say but I would particularly like the emphasis to be on constructive work to restore the work ethic. This, I think, is as important to life routine as it is to employment itself. 4 is a bit like 2. I don't know too much about the arguments for and against anonymity or where anonymity is applied. I think though I can see a few scenarios in which it might be appropriate. On 5, I don't know how effective ASBOs tend to be but it worries me that getting rid of them could send out the wrong signals.

On 6, sorry, I don't believe that drugs should be decriminalized and have discussed this elsewhere. Enough said by me on that topic for a while. But on 7, yes, ban no-win-no-fee legal cases and ban solicitors from advertising. It is people who have significant, genuine complaints, but not the £20,000 to risk on legal costs, who are being left high and dry. - Lat.

[ahinton]

My goodness ...

I was, of course, responding to Amateur51, citing Stonewall as an example of an organisation which also enjoys charitable status in common with the religious groups mentioned by the aforementioned valued member. Our robust engagement in vigorous debate on many important matters now stretches back some way, and I'm sure we both understand where each other is 'coming from' even if nobody else here does.

You may well be able to get a full list of UK charitable organisations from other sources, but I very much regret I do not have that full list in my immediate possession. I suggest the popular Google search engine might be a good place to start if you wish to pursue this particular matter further.

Thanking you for your enquiry ..

Google and the like are hardly going to reveal what "you mean in the present context", are they?! - and that was my question that you've not very deftly avoided anzxswering so far.

[amateur51]

BTS - On 1, I once lived next door to a young female prison officer. The prison where she was employed is one known nationally as being for those guilty of the most grave offences. I bumped into her one Christmas Eve and asked her if she was looking forward to the main day. "Not really" she said "I am just about to make a sandwich for tomorrow as I will be working". "Don't you get a Christmas meal there?" I asked. She replied "Oh no, those are only made for the prisoners".

I am not sure that I would begrudge any prisoner a Christmas meal. However, this example does say something about this country's peculiarities. I would agree with a prison regime that said no to Xbox etc and yes to only minimal TV. Privileges to be earned and, yes, basic grub only. And yes to spending more money on trying to rehabilitate those who want (and can prove by results) that they want to change. I am also against the presumption that if someone does what is required, his or her terms should be shortened. I would instead like to see terms reduced only for exceptionally good behaviour.

On 2, no comment. I just don't know enough about the Sentencing Guidelines Council. On 3, yes perhaps have jackets as you say but I would particularly like the emphasis to be on constructive work to restore the work ethic. This, I think, is as important to life routine as it is to employment itself. 4 is a bit like 2. I don't know too much about the arguments for and against anonymity or where anonymity is applied. I think though I can see a few scenarios in which it might be appropriate. On 5, I don't know how effective ASBOs tend to be but it worries me that getting rid of them could send out the wrong signals.

On 6, sorry, I don't believe that drugs should be decriminalized and have discussed this elsewhere. Enough said by me on that topic for a while. But on 7, yes, ban no-win-no-fee legal cases and ban solicitors from advertising. It is people who have significant, genuine complaints, but not the £20,000 to risk on legal costs, who are being left high and dry. - Lat.

I don't know where this idea of prison being a place of sweetness, light & all-singing all-dancing technology has come from, but it bears nio resemblance whatsoever to any prision I have visited (as a day visitor ).

They are bleak, noisy, drug-fuelled hostile environments, full of cliques and menace - and that's just the staff You are given privileges grudgingly and POs are thrilled when they get the opportunity to take them from you.Axes are ground often and there are precious few opportunities for rehabilitation. Some prisons operate an enlightened environment, it's true, allowing voluntary organisations in to provide activities and some therapies, but you only have to read the reports of Her Majesty's Inspector of Prisons to know that a spell in prison is to be to be avoided at all costs

[BetweenTheStaves]

Lat..many thanks for your constructive comments.

Ams...I take your point but surely if prisons were as bleak as you are suggesting then they would act more as a deterrent? Or perhaps it is a result of (2)...ie that a criminal knows that the chances of going to prison are very slim and that whatever sentence they get will be halved automatically as long as they behave?

[scottycelt]

Google and the like are hardly going to reveal what "you mean in the present context", are they?! - and that was my question that you've not very deftly avoided anzxswering so far.

Have ever considered taking my post (#62) "in context" by taking the trouble to firstly read another's post to which it referred .. ?

My obvious point was/is simply that we might all be able to pinpoint certain charities that we ourselves would not have considered particularly worthy of 'charitable status', according to our own socio-political leanings and beliefs.

I trust that's now quite clear and 'deft' enough for you ... :cool2:

[amateur51]

Lat..many thanks for your constructive comments.

Ams...I take your point but surely if prisons were as bleak as you are suggesting then they would act more as a deterrent? Or perhaps it is a result of (2)...ie that a criminal knows that the chances of going to prison are very slim and that whatever sentence they get will be halved automatically as long as they behave?

If the chances of going to prison are slim, why are they permanently full? And we have to keep letting people out because we need to make room for the next lot.

Re deterrence - maybe people's lives are so bleak, that the prospect of prison is not a deterrent 'necessary' crime. Remember a huge proportion of prisoners are illiterate and innumerate, and there is also a disturbingly high incidence of mental health problems.

[amateur51]

Have ever considered taking my post (#62) "in context" by taking the trouble to firstly read another's post to which it referred .. ?

My obvious point was/is simply that we might all be able to pinpoint certain charities that we ourselves would not have considered particularly worthy of 'charitable status', according to our own socio-political leanings and beliefs.

I trust that's now quite clear and 'deft' enough for you ... :cool2:

To be fair, scotty I was asserting a matter of principle - the relationship between Church & State, the charitable nature of the promotion of religion - and not pinpointing certain charities.

[scottycelt]

To be fair, scotty I was asserting a matter of principle - the relationship between Church & State, the charitable nature of the promotion of religion - and not pinpointing certain charities.

To be equally as fair, amateur, you only pinpointed religious bodies with 'charitable status', and I responded with an example of a secular body which promotes a lifestyle not favoured by many and which also enjoys 'charitable status'.

Your position is perfectly logical given your oft-stated views, and I understand it perfectly, but I simply happen to disagree with it!

[amateur51]

Still not quite got it, scotty ...

The promotion of religion is a charitable purpose per se

The promotion of Lesbian and Gay rights is not charitable per se

Happy to help

[eighthobstruction]

Staves....I am too dyslexic to go back and forward through your points, but I choose two....

No Win No Fee....yes, this is a ugly little number....if you just take things like personal injury due to car crashes....On a Panarama prog' last month about Insurance Scams [Arranged Accidents], there was a no win no fee solicitor/brief who said 10 years ago he was just getting £1200 per case for personal injury....but due to new regulations, and the way Insurance companies interpret them, and the way insurances companies prosecute cases [due to the increase of personal injury cases], he now gets £4,000 per case and HE has done nothing different than he usually does. Rather annoying too that in the post code I live in BD Bradford....whip lash injury claims have gone up by 60% in a very short time. We were involved in such a case [the claimant eventually got £8,000 in very dubious circumstances]....my insurance company had strong evidence that it was a scam, yet at the court offered no defence [in fact no solicitor turned up]....I would have taken it to the Ombudsman, BUT, I had already spent so much time going to the Ombudsman ref something else the insurance company had cocked up, [they got us credit blacklisted by not paying the fine on time], that come the end[6 months later] I was short of energy. If the claim had gone through smoothly [as most do] I would have known nothing about this information.


Secondly REF FINES at court....reading the local rag , I am amazed how little that people get fined for quite IMO serious offenses....TAKE driving with no MOT,Insurance....they get fine less than £250 on average and 3-6 points on license....when you weigh this against £1000 insurance premiums for 18-25 year old , it seems cheaper to take the fine and drive....As I have said before in different threads ....I would so love to be Judge Dread ....

[scottycelt]

Still not quite got it, scotty ...

The promotion of religion is a charitable purpose per se

The promotion of Lesbian and Gay rights is not charitable per se

Happy to help

Oh, I reckon I've got it all right, amateur ...

The promotion of religion is not a 'charitable purpose per se' but some religious bodies (like many of their secular counterparts) do enjoy 'charitable status'.

Stonewall which promotes Lesbian and Gay rights has equally enjoyed 'charitable status' since 2003.

[David Underdown]

My mother is a prison chaplain in an ordinary men's local prison (and formerly a social worker). By her account, many of those who end up in prison have (often previously undiagnosed) learning difficulties, a high proportion of these are verging on illiterate, others have various addiction problems and/or mental health issues, and many come from what can only be called abusive backgrounds with little stability - for these men prison is perhaps the most stable community they know. Many offences are committed under the influenceof drink or drugs - deterrence requires some level of rational thought (and comprehension of cause and effect). She's been involved in delivering things like the Family Man course, http://www.safeground.org.uk/courses...y-man-revised/ (and google ["family man" prison course], for a variety of accounts). Problem is of course that places are very limited, and this on short sentences aren't inside long enough to actually be able to get on this or similar courses

[eighthobstruction]

Yep, I reckon that is par for the course DU....prisons are full of ignorant inmates, failed by themselves, education, and families. Their outlooks [their world view] are very limited, and their experience of lets say the finer/more natural things are very limited....yet our experience shows that with the correct and constant personal attention, their attitudes can be changed and their experience broadened.

[eighthobstruction]

I do believe the Scotty/Am51 dialogue [including that of BBC P3 board] must now be getting to a length, where it might be published like those 'Dear Jim' letters in the Private Eye....Most invigorating in it's 'toujour la politesse'....