HOW do we HELP and CHANGE the CHILDREN of the INNERCITIES

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, to be honest, as a family (non-Church going) we were brought up with 'Christian Values' i.e., if you lied, swore, cheated or thieved you got a clip round the ears!

Youth workers (youth clubs as I mentioned before), outreach workers to get them involved in whatever interests them,, music workshops (social worker friend in London has been involved in setting one up for black youngsters with mental health problems in West London and has got a lot of semi-professional non-rap musicians involved), dance workshops, drama and comedy workshops (to increase language skills), use school running tracks, football pitches after hours. Get them off the streets and use their energy to create something. Get parents involved from junior school upwards, via the PTA, get parents into the schools (certainly here parents go in to listen to reading groups, take baking sessions) so they can see what their kids are doing. All schools to include compulsory parenting lessons in an effort to cut teenage pregnancies and get the parents to attend as well, make schools a community.

Education, agree with ff particularly about SATS (Wales & Scotland got rid of them years ago) more male teachers in primary/junior schools as a father figure to replace absent Dads (and this cross references the Role Model thread where so many cite their teachers as being an influence on them)

Once again - while agreeing with practically everything you say Anna, the problem is "latchkey" parents finding *time* to go into schools during the daytime - and even at night time the problem of overlapping shifts.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

it will be worth keeping an eye on Ian Duncan Smith's progress in coming weeks and months, the only senior politico to have devoted several years of engagement with these issues .... these issues are too important for the normal behaviour of partisan politics and he has perhaps broader support than is usually the case ... there are no other figures in the Govt that offer much hope ...

i am off to re-read MacIntyre

[ahinton]

Thank you ahinton. I don't have any specific comments. However, I would just summarise by clarifying that I would like our MPs to try to rise to the dignity built into parliamentary procedure. Although Mr Speaker is doing a splendid job - no wonder many want to get rid of him - it is an uphill battle. King George V may or may not have said "Bugger Bognor" but it seems relevant in its symbolism. Every tinpot Charlie who claims to represent an area appears to be saying "Bugger Britain" in his actions.

I have to admit that I'd forgotten that George V quote so did not have it in mind when writing my response to your reference to that town. As to your last sentence, I recommend that you suggest this to the MP representing the constituency in which I live at your peril...

[Anna]

We all know the 'parental responsibility' gig is especially important here....but how !

What mechanism....for surely it has to be a mechanism, might be provided to ensure that attention is focussed on this issue....

In the first place it has to be to identify [quantify] the parents, and then to see if they even care....

Any child 'helped' at school, any child who is made to understand the ' big issues' at school....may still have to go home to an uncaring/uncivilised home of parent/parents/siblings/environment, in an innercity of moral deficit and decay. In other words going home to the same old thing.

It is a shame that school is out at the moment, because there is a chance it woud be a heavy talking pointing point.

What mechanism can be put in place? To be honest, I haven’t the faintest at the moment how this could be achieved, there is a Government Dept for Children, Liberal Democrat MP Sarah Teather became the new Minister of State for Children and Families after the Election. I assume they are more concerned with physical abuse of children BUT, if they’re not involved directly with poor parenting and responsibility then perhaps they should be and put some initiatives in place..

There again. It’s probably an easy enough job to identify the children, via the schools, a visit could probably identify those parents who don’t give a toss but, tricky situation, what right do official outside bodies have to tell parents they are just not doing their job without being accused of violating their human rights?

Quite frankly, living in a small town, which is not multi-cultural, with below average crime figures, and no experience of innercity London life (I have lived in London but in Wimbledon and Ealing) I'm struggling a bit to truly imagine what life is like there for some.. I’ve put forward my suggestions re outreach workers, workshops, etc., but probably can’t contribute anything more to this thread which would be constructive. I’ll await others ideas with interest.

[Simon]

what right do official outside bodies have to tell parents they are just not doing their job without being accused of violating their human rights?

No rights whatsoever, as long as a child is not being abused. And even then, they have to pussyfoot around. I know, cos I've been there, and I don't want to go back - it was a nightmare persuading the "authorities" to act but we got there in the end.

Just like on the other thread, you can't get away from it. Too much emphasis on rights and not enough on responsibilities. No boundaries, no meaningful sanctions.

Freedom needs to be limited in order to be enjoyed. Plato said it first, I think. Once those limits disappear or become blurred, the way to breakdown beckons. That doesn't mean a dictatorship, but just a reversion to common-sense attitudes to help communities deal with the minority who cause trouble.

[Lateralthinking1]

What would be, say, the first three things you would do Simon as Prime Minister to rebalance rights and responsibilities (to help and change the children of the inner cities)?

[Simon]

1. Get rid of the ridiculous humans rights legislation - we don't need it, we didn't have it till recently and all it has done it make a lot of lawyers very rich at public expense and tie the hands of many people who could make a difference. This would also help redress the balance towards responsibility. (btw have you noticed how many lawyers are running the country, and how they are almost untouchable? Not a good thing, that.)

2. Bring back corporal punishment, to teach that boundaries are there for a reason and that overstepping them causes pain. In other words, apply meaningful sanctions to lawbreakers. This would also reduce most of the current problems faced by schools.

3. Pull out of the wasteful and corrupt EU and put the billions saved into initiatives to teach parenting skills and to increase the number of trained social and youth workers, to expand the vocational skills programmes for those not academically-gifted, and to expand the public sector of elderly care homes and pay those working in them a decent wage for the vital jobs they do.

4. Stop all but essential immigration, leading eventually, one hopes, to a net loss of people - we haven't the resources for any more. Spend some money insisting that those of different cultures who are already here integrate, rather than set up inner-city ghettos.

5. Impose a fair level of tax on everyone, and tax heavily the obscene bonuses and salaries received by some. They threaten to leave? - good, let them go. Others will do just as well, eventually.

6. Try, whenever possible, to ensure that new houses are built in smaller community areas, like "new villages", rather than increasing population density in cities, where people don't talk to each other.

7. Stop sending "aid" to countries that don't need it, and send what we do send with strings attached so that it doesn't just go into the Swiss account of whatever corrupt general is in power at the time, but rather goes direct to those who really need it.

8. Renationalise the Post Office/Royal Mail and get rid of the foreign firms who have cherry-picked the most profitable bits. The local PO is a vital resource for all kinds of services, as is the mail service, and if supported and used properly is a major asset to all communities. The realisation that there are some things not measured by profit alone is a good place for a government to start from!

9. Renationalise the railways. They can be profitable, and are another public service. Go the way of the other countries in Europe, many of which have a national rail service to be proud of.

10. No EU would mean a vibrant fishing industry again, of course. Ally this with encouragement for British farmers and the country would become more self-sufficient in food, thereby also reducing the current trade deficit, which would soom become positive as we traded more with the Commonwealth and helped Africa get around the punitive trade restrictions imposed by the EU to benefit inefficient French peasants.

That would do for a start. Five years and we'd be buzzing again!

[Lateralthinking1]

Actually, some of that list is a bit surprising (and some of it isn't). I could agree with most of it.

[Anna]

imposed by the EU to benefit inefficient French peasanra

Vive La Revolution! I'll get me knitting out whilst the tumbrils roll past .. and Madame Guillotine awaits

Simon, this was a serious thread about how we could help innercity children, not an excuse for a rant against the EU and a thinly disguised advert for UKIP

[Ariosto]

3. Pull out of the wasteful and corrupt EU and put the billions saved into initiatives to teach parenting skills and to increase the number of trained social and youth workers, to expand the vocational skills programmes for those not academically-gifted, and to expand the public sector of elderly care homes and pay those working in them a decent wage for the vital jobs they do.

5. Impose a fair level of tax on everyone, and tax heavily the obscene bonuses and salaries received by some. They threaten to leave? - good, let them go. Others will do just as well, eventually.

8. Renationalise the Post Office/Royal Mail and get rid of the foreign firms who have cherry-picked the most profitable bits. The local PO is a vital resource for all kinds of services, as is the mail service, and if supported and used properly is a major asset to all communities. The realisation that there are some things not measured by profit alone is a good place for a government to start from!

9. Renationalise the railways. They can be profitable, and are another public service. Go the way of the other countries in Europe, many of which have a national rail service to be proud of.

I could possibly agree with some of these points, but I would like to hear a debate take place first over a period of time and involving the whole country and not just vested interests and politicians.

Your other points are I'm afraid a bit too extreme for me to consider.

[Simon]

Simon, this was a serious thread about how we could help innercity children, not an excuse for a rant against the EU and a thinly disguised advert for UKIP ...

...and if you read it through you'll find that the question was seriously answered. The fact that a couple of bits involve the EU is hardly surprisng: we're in it.

Anyway, which bits of my manifesto do you disagree with?

[Simon]

Glad to see we do have a bit of common ground, Ariosto. I don't expect you to agree with it all. But what's extreme about 4, 6, 7 and 10?

[Ariosto]

Glad to see we do have a bit of common ground, Ariosto. I don't expect you to agree with it all. But what's extreme about 4, 6, 7 and 10?

In my opinion those points are extreme enough to warrant a long national debate. Much of it goes against our ethos as a generous and caring country, at least it would have done not so long ago.

Many of those restrictions would cause untold suffering to many people both at home and abroad.

But how about adding another point or two? (11) Divorce the church from the state? (12) Change the H of Lords to an elected chamber, and get rid of ALL titles? (13) Put much higher rates of VAT on certain goods e.g. Luxury cars, TV sets, and a lot of so called designer goods? Higher VAT on cigarettes and junk food?

[amateur51]

In my opinion those points are extreme enough to warrant a long national debate. Much of it goes against our ethos as a generous and caring country, at least it would have done not so long ago.

Many of those restrictions would cause untold suffering to many people both at home and abroad.

But how about adding another point or two? (11) Divorce the church from the state? (12) Change the H of Lords to an elected chamber, and get rid of ALL titles? (13) Put much higher rates of VAT on certain goods e.g. Luxury cars, TV sets, and a lot of so called designer goods? Higher VAT on cigarettes and junk food?

Good point about disestablishing the Church, ariosto.

I'd go further and abolish faith schools and end charitable status for the promotion of religion. Religious groups can be funded for other activity that is for the greater public good and thus likely to be charitable.

[Lateralthinking1]

As people know, the last year has left me quite sour.

1. Human rights: I don't know exactly how the human rights legislation works in practice. One sees a lot of stories in the press about dubious application. Still, it sounds good in principle and you sort of stick with it on that basis. I have to say though that I have felt that I have had a couple of genuine cases, one on employment linked to medical issues and one on nuisance and negligence caused by planning failures. Both have been extraordinarily upsetting to the point of devastating. And I am told that while I have a strong moral case, neither involves rights. Had I suffered some minor indignity that counted for little financially or in health and happiness terms, I may be getting on for a millionaire by now and surely that just can't be right. You are correct about lawyers. To get one to send a letter to the Council to advise them what they should do to comply with the law, I found out this week that it would cost over £600. When I said I would need to consider it, he slammed the phone down on me so rapidly and rudely that I immediately decided against. The system was working with the system and not there for me - so yes get rid.

2. CP: If cp was on my list at all, it would probably be at number 102 rather than 2. Even then, I would want to know exactly what was being proposed. I am not saying no but I feel that there are many effective courses that MPs just won't sign up to.

3 and 10. EU and Services: Completely agree on where you want to spend money. The question is whether to leave the EU. For over 30 years I was staunchly in favour of membership. Now I am neutral and am beginning to turn against it. I think we should strive for greater self-sufficiency whatever we do.

4. Immigration: Yes. I am now absolutely adamant that rational discussion should separate out completely immigration and race relations. I see no argument as to why a ban on immigration for five years would be racist. I have actually come round to the view that a lower population would be better for people of all backgrounds and creeds. Labour economists have argued with me for years that we need more and more people to pay for pensions. I always said to them "but who is going to pay for theirs - will this be a never ending increase?". Well, now we know. We've got unsustainable numbers and vastly reduced pensions. You only have to stand at the entrance to Victoria underground station when it is closed because it is jammed to see the lack of sustainability. I don't mind people coming here on 12 month permits to work and don't care what mix of people we have, ie it certainly isn't an argument for whitening the state, as long as the numbers start falling. As for integration, this is a complex area but I would agree on certain measures, ie the learning of english and ensuring peaceful forms of religion as long as everyone's cultural roots are emphasised. I don't want to see everyone turning into a stereotype. We've got enough of that already.

5. Tax: Is there anyone in the country who shares Osborne's enthusiasm for reviewing and possibly reducing the higher tax rate???

6. Housing: Not sure. I think I'd prefer to see housing mainly in the cities. There is a lot of wasteland. They are also about to replace over 1,000 pages of planning guidance with just over 50. Villages need houses but not with the new largely absent planning controls. There will be no greenery left soon.

7. Foreign aid: It needs better management. Personally, I wouldn't have ring fenced it either in these harsh economic times.

8 and 9. Post Office and Railways: Yes without doubt in principle but wouldn't renationalising cost huge amounts?