HOW do we HELP and CHANGE the CHILDREN of the INNERCITIES

[eighthobstruction]

OK ff asked projected a new thread ref the trouble around the country....so here it is.

Lets say we are past the period of trials and punishment, material rebuilding of infra-structure....WHAT THEN ?

The talk of parenting, discipline in schools, jobs, and schemes....all seem to ignore those who are already 14-25, who in many cases will be siblings [even parents] of the children who will hopefully be nurtured/taught under a new regime in the next few years. We hope. There is a big difficulty of this 'bleed' of the negative morals/ethics, manners, civility, feeling of inclusion that we have now; from generation to generation.

We are going to have quickly get past the punishment stage, and though many will say 'mollycoddling', we will HAVE to put more time and effort into children....and young adults....And of course more ££....we may have to spoil them with ATTENTION, rather than material goods.

[Serial_Apologist]

OK ff asked projected a new thread ref the trouble around the country....so here it is.

Lets say we are past the period of trials and punishment, material rebuilding of infra-structure....WHAT THEN ?

The talk of parenting, discipline in schools, jobs, and schemes....all seem to ignore those who are already 14-25, who in many cases will be siblings [even parents] of the children who will hopefully be nurtured/taught under a new regime in the next few years. We hope. There is a big difficulty of this 'bleed' of the negative morals/ethics, manners, civility, feeling of inclusion that we have now; from generation to generation.

We are going to have quickly get past the punishment stage, and though many will say 'mollycoddling', we will HAVE to put more time and effort into children....and young adults....And of course more ££....we may have to spoil them with ATTENTION, rather than material goods.

I'll need to get back to you on this one, 8th, in minus 35 years' time...

Seriously, well done in initiating this thread - time for a proper ding-dong on thissun

BTW, Molly Coddlingham and Pam Pringham were once great friends of mine

[eighthobstruction]

Parents could possibly be PAID to go into Primary Schools and act as assistants....[paid on top of their benefits, if they are in receipt of benefits]

It would have dual role of teaching the parents about discipline, and nurturing children....role modelling....plus many other benefits ;I am sure.

[Lateralthinking1]

The answer is easy but won't happen. It requires changes that those in charge won't accept. It would be best summarised by the phrase "stop goading and get real":

1. Politicians to go on a budget: Stop saying in tough times "we are all in this together", then swanning off to Italy and Los Angeles, ie. The absent political parents living the life of riley, showing irritation at having to come back early because of the pesky kids. To take all of their holidays for the next five years in Britain - preferably walking and camping. If they don't like it, hard luck. Also, Parliament should close for one month. Why does it need three?

2. End the double standards - Politicians also to ditch the dodgy friends - ie Murdoch; stop milking the system for all it's still worth - expenses; admit to all past drugs use and publicly condemn themselves for doing it - that includes the PM; and do the same with past hooliganism - Bullingdon and restaurants, Clegg and the cactus - in fact for all of them to write a joint letter to be published in a newspaper admitting to what they have done and expressing wholehearted remorse.

3. End the lies about education - Ditch this ridiculous idea of sending 50% to university and admit that it is a complete waste of time - say that there aren't the jobs there and it just leads to personal costs that for many will be detrimental.

4. Sort it out through taxation - Ensure that everyone earns no more than £100,000 pa net. That includes bankers, chief executives, footballers and television and film stars. Put all taxation from this change directly into the creation of jobs, even if they aren't essential. Ask those who would be affected by the tax to declare that they are doing this for the sake of the country's youth. If they don't and choose to go elsewhere, point out that they aren't worth admiring.

5. Price of goods to be more real - Get companies to present goods as more functional with prices to match. End this rubbish about trainers being like jewellery and show a lot of films about kids in sweatshops making them.

6. Promotion of free interests - The website London For Free has masses of ideas and it costs little or nothing to play football, put on fashion shows at home, swim in the sea, look after plants and animals, go into the countryside, develop an interest in art, music and drama.

7. Stop talking about a bleak ending - eg Pensions - Stop telling people that the end of their lives could be poverty stricken and that such and such a percentage of people will live to 100 like that. Nobody actually knows - wars, climate change, new inventions to boost the economy etc - so the very idea that we will have less money for the elderly in 80 or 90 years time is dangerous nonsense.

8. Change the culture - Those from West Indian and white working class British families in particular to be weaned off American gangsterism. Don't tell them that hip-hop, rap and the like is to be condemned morally. Say at every available opportunity that it is (a) old-fashioned - 32 this year and (b) in the case of black youth point out all of the white Americans making money out of it. Stronger censorship on the most violent electronic games. Elders to be actively involved in emphasising the importance and coolness of West Indian roots. Keep youth clubs open.

9. The BBC to do its part - Radio 1 and the like to change course and promote a culture of fun rather than hype and hysteria.

10. Effective punishments - Punishments should involve supervised hard graft and a period of time without electronic gadgets.

[Serial_Apologist]

It would have dual role of teaching the parents about discipline, and nurturing children....role modelling....plus many other benefits ;I am sure.

Discipline and role-modelling for **what?** remain Big Questions. Inasmuch as my thinking has got out of bed, I'm with Lat at this point.

[Anna]

Youth Clubs (the very thing that has been cut) We had a problem with vandalism, graffiti, kids playing chicken with cars by riding the wrong way down a one-way street, general anti-social behaviour, skiving off school, those that left school going straight on benefit. These were children aged from 10 to around 16 from a local childrens' home combined with families who had been moved into social housing from an urban area.

To try and get premises was a nightmare, objections as being too near commercial property and/or residential. NIMBY in other words. However, premises were found, but troubles were not solved overnight however and bad behaviour continued around and outside the premises.

Fast foward a couple of years. The kids were given a small piece of disused land just down the road from the Club. With the aid of the Duke of Edinburgh's trust the land was cleared and the children (and some of them were pretty surly whilst undertaking hard labour) planted it out. Everyone said it'd be trashed within a couple of weeks. But, no it wasn't. There's a plaque with all their names on it, what the varities of plants are and they maintain and tend it diligently. The Club itself is very well equipped (pool table, computers, etc) and they are now actively engaged in charity work (raising funds for Water Aid), they hold open days with bring and buy, and bric a brac make cakes and biscuits for sale and now, we don't have any trouble.

So, it's not an instant solution and takes some years (and very dedicated youth workers) but I think making that garden they've given something to the community that they take obvious pride in and the community are grateful to have something nice to look at. It is, btw, Council funded.

As for paying parents to go into the schools - I recall that idea was mooted some time ago in parliament but cannot remember when.

[Serial_Apologist]

Youth Clubs (the very thing that has been cut) We had a problem with vandalism, graffiti, kids playing chicken with cars by riding the wrong way down a one-way street, general anti-social behaviour, skiving off school, those that left school going straight on benefit. These were children aged from 10 to around 16 from a local childrens' home combined with families who had been moved into social housing from an urban area.

To try and get premises was a nightmare, objections as being too near commercial property and/or residential. NIMBY in other words. However, premises were found, but troubles were not solved overnight however and bad behaviour continued around and outside the premises.

Fast foward a couple of years. The kids were given a small piece of disused land just down the road from the Club. With the aid of the Duke of Edinburgh's trust the land was cleared and the children (and some of them were pretty surly whilst undertaking hard labour) planted it out. Everyone said it'd be trashed within a couple of weeks. But, no it wasn't. There's a plaque with all their names on it, what the varities of plants are and they maintain and tend it digilently. The Club itself is very well equipped (pool table, computers, etc) and they are now actively engaged in charity work (raising funds for Water Aid), they hold open days with bring and buy, and bric a brac make cakes and biscuits for sale and now, we don't have any trouble.

So, it's not an instant solution and takes some years (and very dedicated youth workers) but I think making that garden they've given something to the community that they take obvious pride in and the community are grateful to have something nice to look at. It is, btw, Council funded.

As for paying parents to go into the schools - I recall that idea was mooted some time ago in parliament but cannot remember when.

And such schemes work in the inner cities too, and even though under threat of the cutbacks are possibly (?) not expensive to run. Tin rattling outside churches, mosques, supermarkets etc, which I'd be only too happy to give time to, would draw the attention and potentially involvement, financial and practical, to make the kids feel connected, possibly for the first time in their lives. Projects of this kind in Peckham, east London and elsewhere were once shown in TV series; Monty Don's one with drug addicts showed the difficulties at their most acute. Why for god;'s sake not more programmes of this kind, instead of ubiquitous home makeovers?? The main thing is to keep everyone engaged in guarding, maintaining and replanting these sites, as well as in their planning. There is something about plants and their care that can underpin social connectedness on very deep levels, maybe even rewire synaptically - deeper than the conventionally religious, imv.

[eighthobstruction]

<<'rewire synaptically'>>....yes please....can you do it by buying one of those digi gadgets they sell in Boots the Chemist....

....I think the majority of youths would not want to get their fingers dirty, nor get there expensive stuff or street cred' sullied....GOOD IDEA for some....but only a few....

[ahinton]

1. Politicians to go on a budget: Stop saying in tough times "we are all in this together", then swanning off to Italy and Los Angeles, ie. The absent political parents living the life of riley, showing irritation at having to come back early because of the pesky kids. To take all of their holidays for the next five years in Britain - preferably walking and camping. If they don't like it, hard luck. Also, Parliament should close for one month. Why does it need three?

Politicians can and should go where they like for their vacations, to which they're as entitled as any other working people, provided that they pay for them from their own personal funds.

2. End the double standards - Politicians also to ditch the dodgy friends - ie Murdoch; stop milking the system for all it's still worth - expenses; admit to all past drugs use and publicly condemn themselves for doing it - that includes the PM; and do the same with past hooliganism - Bullingdon and restaurants, Clegg and the cactus - in fact for all of them to write a joint letter to be published in a newspaper admitting to what they have done and expressing wholehearted remorse.

And what would that hope to achieve beyond giving the newspapers and other media lots to write and bray about incessnatly and interminably - apart, perhaps, from undermining public confidence in all or most MPs? Why would you expect all politicians at all times to recognise in advance who the dodgy friends might be?

3. End the lies about education - Ditch this ridiculous idea of sending 50% to university and admit that it is a complete waste of time - say that there aren't the jobs there and it just leads to personal costs that for many will be detrimental.

And what would the alternative be? Who would employ all the non-graduates? What percentage limit would you seek to impose upon university attendance and why?

4. Sort it out through taxation - Ensure that everyone earns no more than £100,000 pa net. That includes bankers, chief executives, footballers and television and film stars. Put all taxation from this change directly into the creation of jobs, even if they aren't essential. Ask those who would be affected by the tax to declare that they are doing this for the sake of the country's youth. If they don't and choose to go elsewhere, point out that they aren't worth admiring.

Ensuring income ceilings would mean a reduced tax take, but of course no such ceiling could in practice be imposed.

5. Price of goods to be more real - Get companies to present goods as more functional with prices to match. End this rubbish about trainers being like jewellery and show a lot of films about kids in sweatshops making them.

The last bit makes good sense but the rest simply cannot be imposed; provided that companies who manufacture goods do so within all the laws applicable to such activity, they can do it how they like and charge what they want for their products.

6. Promotion of free interests - The website London For Free has masses of ideas and it costs little or nothing to play football, put on fashion shows at home, swim in the sea, look after plants and animals, go into the countryside, develop an interest in art, music and drama.

No problem whatsoever with that although, like everything else, it would have to be paid for.

7. Stop talking about a bleak ending - eg Pensions - Stop telling people that the end of their lives could be poverty stricken and that such and such a percentage of people will live to 100 like that. Nobody actually knows - wars, climate change, new inventions to boost the economy etc - so the very idea that we will have less money for the elderly in 80 or 90 years time is dangerous nonsense.

That's reasonable only up to a point; you don't have to tell people that they may receive reduced or no pensions, that state retirement age will continue to increase until it is abolished, that people who cannot afford not to work will have to continue to do so indefinitely provided that they're well enough to do so and can find and keep the work and so on and so on, becasue nost people already know it!

8. Change the culture - Those from West Indian and white working class British families in particular to be weened off American gangsterism. Don't tell them that hip-hop, rap and the like is to be condemned morally. Say at every available opportunity that it is (a) old-fashioned - 32 this year and (b) in the case of black youth point out all of the white Americans making money out of it. Stronger censorship on the most violent electronic games. Elders to be actively involved in emphasising the importance and coolness of West Indian roots. Keep youth clubs open.

Change which culture/s? - and how? - and how should those to be changed be chosen, on what grounds and by whom? By "weened" I assume you to mean "weaned", but why only "those from West Indian and white working class British families in particular" in this context?

9. The BBC to do its part - Radio 1 and the like to change course and promote a culture of fun rather than hype and hysteria.

So you'd censor the BBC, would you? Why only the BBC, which is one of many thousands of broadcasting organisations with a reach into UK, not to mention internet broadcasting...

10. Effective punishments - Punishments should involve supervised hard graft and a period of time without electronic gadgets.

So punishments are not currently effective? Imagine overhauling the entire punishment regimen in UK - that's to say for all offences from minor parking ones to serial killing - and imagine how long it would take and how much it would cost! Also bear in mind that custodial sentences are possible only to the extent that there remain sufficient places for prisoners and sufficient staff to care for them and buildings in which to house them. Who would supervise what kinds of "hard graft", for whose benefit would that graft be done and who would fund that supervision and determine the necessary qualifications for the supervisors (especially if university graduates would be required to fulfil such rôles and your recommended severe curtailing of university education had left UK society with far too few of them?)

If most of the above suggestions constitute lateral thinking, I shudder to imagine what any other kind of thinking would be like!...

[amateur51]

<<'rewire synaptically'>>....yes please....can you do it by buying one of those digi gadgets they sell in Boots the Chemist....

....I think the majority of youths would not want to get their fingers dirty, nor get there expensive stuff or street cred' sullied....GOOD IDEA for some....but only a few....

In the 1960s-70s there used to be a Home Office budget head called 'Intermediate Treatment'. In the jargon of the time, this was a budget to fund schemes to 'redirect' young 'offenders or those at risk of offending' into practical activities that met their needs and gave opportunities for trained youth & community workers to find out what was 'wrong' and to direct the young people to other services.

It was heavily monitored, evaluated and 'written up'. It worked. There was proof. What happened? It got 'lost' in the cuts way back in the late 70s

Imagine. Stuff that works. Abandoned.

It's a wheel that does not need re-inventing, just rubbing down & given a modern polish praps. Anna's project might have qualified for it. BBC Children In Need and Comic Relief might fund things like this now, with start-up funding. But government,central and local, needs to make a long-term investment too.

Someone needs to go into the archives, write up a summary of IT and do a presentation to Government wonks for wider dissemination. Some politician's name could be made on the back of this (you have to think what's in it for them )

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140197181800504

[Ariosto]

ahinton

You do seem to be only providing negative threads these days!! Even if some of these ideas by various people might have some problems, maybe being a prophet of doom is not helping, and makes people even more depressed.

[cavatina]

Here's a link to one of the best books I've ever read on the connection between crime and the psychology of brutalization:

WHY THEY KILL

http://www.amazon.com/Why-They-Kill-Discoveries-Criminologist/dp/0375702482

What transforms an ordinary person into a violent criminal? Not genetic inheritance or low self-esteem or coming from a violent subculture, answers Pulitzer PrizeAwinning author Rhodes (The Making of the Atomic Bomb, etc.), but rather a process of brutalization by parents or peers that usually occurs in childhood.

In this provocative study, Rhodes focuses on the work of criminologist Lonnie Athens, who teaches at Seton Hall University in New Jersey. Athens believes that violent crime results from "social retardation," a process whereby an individual who was abused in childhood guides his or her actions by recourse to a "phantom community" of the internalized voices of caregivers and others.

The author champions Athens as a pioneering genius battling a criminological establishment that ascribes violent crime to psychopathology or antecedent social conditions; yet he overestimates the originality of Athens's work (the "phantom community" in some ways resembles Freud's superego), and his well-intentioned study is at times belabored. Both Rhodes and Athens suffered through horrifically abusive childhoods, which adds a compelling personal note to this study but may also color their views. Rhodes strongly endorses Athens's call for school-based prevention programs to break the cycle of domestic and societal violence.

[Anna]

....I think the majority of youths would not want to get their fingers dirty, nor get there expensive stuff or street cred' sullied....GOOD IDEA for some....but only a few....

I'm not saying all the kids joined in. The Centre is open for 9 to 18 year olds, I watched some of the clearing/planting and reckon those involved were around 14-15 years old. It's open from midday every day of the week so it's also somewhere for them to hang out during the school holidays.

Also, another thing is that they entered a float in our annual carnival and ran a stall on the carnival field, so I think that shows how they are now involved in the community.

[eighthobstruction]

Yes, I not knocking it, you are right these are things that CAN be done fairly easily....and in some cases are being done.

My interest is with the more difficult youths and mass change[through education and community]....it is a very very complicated subject....just thinking right now, I can see hundreds of negative things that effect the situation, rather like LaT lists....he may not have the answers, but he is listing inflences that might be approached and massaged/grappled with.

[Lateralthinking1]

ahinton - Thank you for your comments I think.

1. You have made a conscious choice about your line to take. That is one of no compromise. Fair enough, and you pretty well invite me to work hard on spelling out what should be fairly obvious. If MPs exercise their rights to go on holiday wherever they like, this is one of many examples where we are not all in this together. They therefore need to drop that fatuous and insulting statement. It is like a red rag to a bull. There is, of course, scope for self-scrutiny and self-regulation. I realise that such things are anathema to many but those who set the limits for others are in a different position to the average estate agent. Would it not be helpful if they showed in their behaviour some desire for reining in their impulses too? Two weeks in Bognor would even help to boost the British economy. You don't comment on Parliament disappearing for three months. However, this is in sharp contrast to the "open all hours" approach to the police, the NHS and so on. Maybe it is time for it too to modernise in line with the private sector, just as it inflicts on everyone else. It might even begin to indicate a change in the couldn't-give-a-hoot complacency.

2. I don't think I mentioned anything about "in advance". There are pages and pages from their pasts - many recent - of matters about which to be ashamed. To a lesser extent, the same applies to most of us. I don't accept that a joint letter would undermine public confidence. The public are sick of the covering up, the way that apologies are unfashionable and all of the other hypocrisy. Mostly, when people in the public eye come clean, unprompted and with sincere regret, they are applauded for their honesty. They really need to get over adolescence, and not simply by brushing it to one side, to be able to have any authority at all.

3. The percentages going to university should be based on an accurate assessment of ability to benefit and the future job market. Rather than being arbitrary, this would change according to the times. I see no evidence to support the numbers being any greater than they were in the 1980s. Gove doesn't think that the outcome of schooling has improved. And what is the point of sticking five coins in a slot when four will simply be stuck in the machine. There are very few jobs. To get everyone to work like trojans and then leave them competing for a couple of waitress jobs in Pizza Hut. It isn't just insane. It is a form of sadism. Keep with the policy if you wish but do not be surprised when there are very ugly consequences as Middle England joins in with the underclass.

4. No. I am not proposing income ceilings. The word was "net". It wouldn't be a reduced tax take. And on the job question, as I said, the money would go towards job creation.

5. Anything can be imposed by law makers. I accept that you can't fix prices and hope to improve the economy. However, it is not permissible to transport flammable materials in any old packaging. At the point where the idea of a pair of trainers has been pumped up through advertising so that it leads to buildings in flames, the advertising needs to be made more functional and hence less inflammatory. Prices would fall as a consequence. Given company practices, I suspect that in many instances there wouldn't be a great difference in the tax returns the population sees.

6. I don't think so. Why would regular words about the benefits of free pastimes from politicians, celebrities, sportsmen cost?
Unless they felt that they were being forced into them and entitled to even more loot.

7. The level of future pensions? They don't know it. A 10 year old will reach 70 in 60 years time. If I were to list all of the differences between 2011 and 1951 I would be here all day. The majority were entirely unpredictable and many lucrative.

8. I did change the spelling. Obviously you will forgive me for one brief error, noticed and corrected without prompting, in such a long piece of writing. I do realise that it isn't as forgivable as professionals breaking the law. The prevailing culture isn't haphazard. Choices made in the media boardrooms buck the markets perhaps more than they reflect them. Put me onto the task. I will modernize a station for free and probably improve the income to record companies in the process. On the West Indian British and white working class British, they are clearly as a trend where there has been the greatest breakdown in connections with roots. And that is where the media can creep in to have more influence, frequently not for the better.

9. No. Not censor. If you are suggesting that the BBC no longer has the ability to compete, I disagree. Content is what leads the markets. Its biggest problem is that it increasingly follows the herd rather than leads.

10. Maybe you can think of some answers on the punishments. It would, of course, require some effort on your part.