Maths education in the UK

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18047

    Maths education in the UK

    I agree with some recent suggestions that the UK's approach to maths teaching and maths education should be modified.

    There are big problems with mathematics, and maths teaching. My view is that 25% of the population could perhaps have really good understanding of maths, with a further 25-50% having moderate understanding, and some people will just never get it at all.

    Our current education system seems, on the face of it, to try a one size fits all approach. OK - I know it doesn't quite, but up to GCSE level it's not great.

    Some students who can cope with Maths to GCSE, then try to go on to A-Level find that they've almost run in to a brick wall.
    Many teachers are themselves not particularly good at maths - or may hold a view that maths doesn't matter. I'm not particularly referring to maths teachers, though some of these may not be excellent at maths. If a child hears from (say) the English or history teacher that "I was never very good at maths, but I've done OK ..." or something like that, then a message is sent out that maths is not important. The same teacher may nevertheless, if a good teacher, express enthusiasm for his or her own subject.

    It is also possible that some very good mathematicians may not be very good teachers, but that does not imply that very good mathematicians are necessarily not good teachers. There are likely to be some who are both good mathematicians and good teachers. These are people who we should employ in our schools.

    There are problems with maths education. Some students can't cope with the abstract nature of it. Some can't put it into context - "why is maths important?", "why is it important to me?", "why is it interesting?", "what's it used for?" etc. Some students may be very happy working with abstractions, yet others want to work on real world problems. Knowing that many of the greatest mathematicians were also scientists might help students. Newton developed some aspects of calculus perhaps because of a desire to understand gravity and planetary motions. Gauss was also an astronomer. Einstein developed some aspects of tensor calculus, but is most famous as a physicist. These were people who had problems to solve, and mathematics helped them.

    Many of the devices and tools we now use on a daily basis could not have come into being without some understanding of mathematics. Electronics and electrical circuits have been designed using maths. Digital radio and TV relies on coding methods and modulation methods, some of which were developed by mathematicians. Reed-Solomon error correction used for CDs, DVDs and in digital broadcasting was originally proposed as an exercise in coding based on group theory. It is unlikely that OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing) could have been developed to the extent that it is without input from mathematicians. Computers might have developed much less rapidly without the help of George Boole (Boolean Algebra) and Alan Turing and von Neumann - all mathematicians.

    Regarding employment, mathematicians and engineers are still amongst some of the highest paid professionals. The downside of this is that good mathematicians are likely to obtain employment in occupations other than teaching.

    Where the UK's treatment of mathematics in schools seems to fail is that it does not enthuse children who are able enough and push them to attainable goals. One argument might be that we only need perhaps the top 5% of our population to understand enough mathematics, so it's OK to teach it to only a moderate level for everyone else. There might also be an assumption that the brightest and most able kids will do it anyway, so why bother.

    Labelling is also a problem. Mathematics contains many branches - algebra, calculus, logic, geometry, trigonometry etc. It is perfectly possible for a child to like logic and dislike geometry, but statements which lump everything about maths together are not helpful - "maths is boring ...". Obviously the same is true for other subjects. The subject called History contains Roman and Greek history, as well as English history around 1500-1700, and also European history in the 20th Century. It is likely that students will prefer some periods to others. Similarly some students of English may not like Shakespeare, but may enjoy poetry, or novels, or 20th Century American literature.

    There is no point in trying to teach mathematics to children who really have little aptitude or enthusiasm, but there is still a significant proportion of the UK's children who could both learn mathematics to a high standard, and also be enthusiastic about it.

    I welcome Carol Vorderman's suggestion that the UK should adopt new attitudes to mathematics teaching, though I feel that splitting teaching into only two groups won't solve the problem. It should, however, not be acceptable for a teacher in a non-maths subject to discourage students by the kind of statement mentioned earlier. We need a much more enthusiastic and comprehensive approach to maths teaching, in which able maths teachers are matched to appropriate student groups, and don't simply provide drill and practice sessions in numbers, fractions, simultaneous equations, differential systems etc., but put the subject into context for those who wish to appreciate it.
  • johnb
    Full Member
    • Mar 2007
    • 2903

    #2
    Dave,

    An interesting post. I agree with most of what you've posted.

    Although there is a brick wall (or a glass ceiling) where people run up against the limits of their capabilities I'm sure that for the majority of pupils their rejection of maths, etc is more cultural (in the widest sense). I also think that the brick wall effect can be mitigated by guidance and helpful teaching.

    (I remember finding my own brick wall in the supplementary theoretical physics sessions when I was doing post grad physics - many, many decades ago.)

    Comment

    • Eine Alpensinfonie
      Host
      • Nov 2010
      • 20575

      #3
      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
      Our current education system seems, on the face of it, to try a one size fits all approach. .
      Yes, it does. "All children should..." is all too common a phrase and causes distress to those who do not fit in with educational pidgeonholes. It's even spread to music with Wider Opportunities teaching, so that a lot of children learn to play 5 notes very badly, and take a year to do so.

      I welcome Carol Vorderman's suggestion that the UK should adopt new attitudes to mathematics teaching, though I feel that splitting teaching into only two groups won't solve the problem. It should, however, not be acceptable for a teacher in a non-maths subject to discourage students by the kind of statement mentioned earlier. We need a much more enthusiastic and comprehensive approach to maths teaching, in which able maths teachers are matched to appropriate student groups, and don't simply provide drill and practice sessions in numbers, fractions, simultaneous equations, differential systems etc., but put the subject into context for those who wish to appreciate it.
      Precisely, but I would not trust any government-led scheme to be thought through.

      It is not the usefulness of mathematics in the workplace that is the real issue. Most of us knew enough maths from before the age of 12 to get by for the rest of our lives. But, like music, maths education goes far beyond that, developing thought processes within the brain - processes that have considerable beneficial side effects.

      But as for studying it until the age of 18? Dream on, Carol...

      Comment

      • Frances_iom
        Full Member
        • Mar 2007
        • 2418

        #4
        Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
        ... Most of us knew enough maths from before the age of 12 to get by for the rest of our lives.
        Probability + statistics ? - quite sophisticated concepts but at the heart of any real world application - I doubt if you had sufficient grounding in these by age of 12 unless you went onto a science/engineering career - I can remember encountering Matin Gardners books in mid '50s but I suspect I was a little older than 12 but my interest in radio had been started many years earlier when I was shown, aged 5 or 6, how to build a cystal set (and became a 'regular' listener to Radio Moscow as it was by far the strongest powered SW transmitter)

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        • vinteuil
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 12955

          #5
          Originally posted by Frances_iom View Post
          Probability + statistics ? - q)
          I certainly wd support the better teaching of probability and statistics to all school children: also economics. Without a much sounder grasp of statistics than most of us acquire we will never really understand many of the important issues that will crop up later in life - in terms of health care, politics, environmental risks, welfare, life opportunities, road safety - all sorts of things. Tim Hartford's 'More or Less' programme on radio 4 is excellent - but each time I listen to it I regret that I didn't acquire a sounder knowledge of stats and probability earlier. Because so many of the issues that come up prove to have counter-intuitive answers - it really is an area where the notion of "common sense" is a dangerous delusion.

          Yes, more maths please.
          Last edited by vinteuil; 09-08-11, 20:28.

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          • teamsaint
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 25231

            #6
            we have real, fundamental, deeprooted failings in maths, and splitting off groups who"can't do it" or teaching till 18 are surely not the way to begin to deal with them.

            Th fundamental flaw, (I was a ploddy O level B grade) is the problem that affects other areas of learning....too much splitting off of subject areas. We need to get mathematical concepts, and the language of maths, much more integrated into other things that we do.As a small example,the mathematical aspects of music might be explored in an interesting way, or perhaps geometry used in more creative ways through out the curriculum. This might well imporove the teaching of the other subject areas too. Get people "thinking in maths" and some of the barriers might come down.
            I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

            I am not a number, I am a free man.

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            • Eine Alpensinfonie
              Host
              • Nov 2010
              • 20575

              #7
              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
              As a small example,the mathematical aspects of music might be explored in an interesting way, or perhaps geometry used in more creative ways through out the curriculum. This might well imporove the teaching of the other subject areas too. Get people "thinking in maths" and some of the barriers might come down.
              As an aside, a maths teaching colleague told me that he had great difficulty in reading music notation. I replied - "Oh, it's just a modified graph." From then on, he understood.

              Comment

              • amateur51

                #8
                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                I certainly wd support the better teaching of probability and statistics to all school children: also economics. Without a much sounder grasp of statistics than most of us acquire we will never really understand many of the important issues that will crop up later in life - in terms of health care, politics, environmental risks, welfare, life opportunities, road safety - all sorts of things. Tim Hartford's 'More or Less' programme on radio 4 is excellent - but each time I listen to it I regret that I didn't acquire a sounder knowledge of stats and probability earlier. Because so many of the issues that come up prove to have counter-intuitive answers - it really is an area where the notion of "common sense" is a dangerous delusion.

                Yes, more maths please.
                Very good points vints. Many years ago, when I was being trained in grants assessment, I was given an Accounts 101 session which explained the basics and drummed into me the maxim: if you see something that doesn't make sense, ask. You won't appear stupid, you'll be exercising your right to understand. And keep asking until you do understand.

                I think a course in basic & applied statistics should be mandatory for all politicians & would-be politicians, and for aspiring and practising journalists.

                Comment

                • Mary Chambers
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 1963

                  #9
                  My thoughts about maths education aren't really very relevant to this thread - I'm one of the older ones here, and my maths lessons were in the forties and fifties. Nevertheless, I'm very clear about why I disliked it so much. I loathed the subject from the beginning, when I suppose it was just arithmetic. It was the only subject I loathed (apart from games when I got older, but that doesn't really count). I loved English, especially poetry, and music, especially singing. I enjoyed geography, history, languages, art, and though we didn't do any real science before the age of eleven, I was quite happy with chemistry and biology when we started them.

                  But arithmetic I found cold, colourless, inhuman, boring. Learning tables couldn't compare with learning poems or songs. It didn't express anything; it wasn't connected with people or (as far as I could see then) nature. I suppose I must have known enough to pass the exams to get into a selective school, but it still bored me silly. At secondary level it was even worse, and my dislike of it was greatly intensified by the fact that the maths teachers in my all-girls school were all, without exception, exactly the kind of women I didn't want to be. Teachers of arts subjects were frequently charismatic or even glamorous, but maths teachers were, in my view, dried-up old sticks. There seemed to be no joy or poetry in them. Subconsciously I must have thought that maths made them like that.

                  As I said in another thread, fortunately for me (second to bottom in the bottom set of a selective school) O-level maths wasn't necessary then to read English at university, if you had Latin and one science - easy for me. If I'd had to do maths till 18 I'd probably have left school before the sixth form! As it was, I gave it up at 14, with no regrets whatsoever. I can see now that the higher reaches of maths probably have a certain beauty, but of course I never reached them, and doubt if I'd been convinced then anyway.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18047

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mary Chambers View Post
                    As I said in another thread, fortunately for me (second to bottom in the bottom set of a selective school) O-level maths wasn't necessary then to read English at university, if you had Latin and one science - easy for me. If I'd had to do maths till 18 I'd probably have left school before the sixth form! As it was, I gave it up at 14, with no regrets whatsoever. I can see now that the higher reaches of maths probably have a certain beauty, but of course I never reached them, and doubt if I'd been convinced then anyway.
                    Mary

                    I think your comments are relevant. Two points in particular. Firstly, I suspect that you were turned off at a very early age, which is a shame. I don't know what your teachers were like, but if you were just doing arithmetic and tables by rote I can certainly understand why you didn't like that. I suppose I got into maths because my father was a maths teacher, and I used to draw graphs and geometric shapes ages before we did them at school. I did find arithmetic boring, though one teacher remarked that I could make mistakes adding up single numbers, but if I had to multiply two 3 digit numbers together I'd could usually do that pretty fast. I think that some teachers, even at primary level, do manage to make mathematics much more interesting - or at least they were doing so a couple of decades back. Unfortunately I also met teachers (sometimes very nice people, but hopelessly misguided ...) who were of the "I wasn't any good at it either, but it hasn't done me any harm ..." variety. Teachers who marked homework as incorrect (which it possibly was), but didn't bother - or couldn't - figure out the reason why children in their class were getting "incorrect" answers. Sometimes this was as simple as copying the question down incorrectly - so even though the answer was wrong, the answers were correct for the questions attempted. A good teacher should spot things like that.

                    Secondly, if pupils really don't get into maths, either because they've just never got it, or maybe they really don't have the aptitude, then I think it would be really cruel to force them to carry on. Although I'm in favour of education, and perhaps even in favour of education up to 18 - for most students, making people do things which they really don't want to do, or are unable to do, just seems pointless. Of course this is the sort of policy that governments sometimes try to push forward - do I detect that Cameron's lot are trying to do just that?!

                    You do realise that there are higher reaches of mathematics, and this is where we should be trying to get to for those who can cope. It requires a lot more imagination by teachers to get students up there, but I don't actually think it should be that difficult. What I feel is really lacking is some form of map. When you go abroad you maybe study history, language and look at maps. You don't necessarily become an expert, but you gain an overview which is helpful on your trip. Similarly, I think it is possible to provide an overview of some mathematics ideas, so that at least students know where they are going, and sometimes when they have arrived.

                    Programmes such as the Story of Maths, by Marcus de Sautoy, give some ideas of a map, without going into a lot of detail. However, I'd be a bit wary of his latest programme - The Code - which seems to have considerable flaws - at least in the first programme.

                    Comment

                    • Segilla
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 136

                      #11
                      I was hopeless at maths at school. What hadn't helped was being evacuated during WWII for a while, then on return being put in a class above my abilities, leapfrogging being taught long multiplication and division.

                      However, after school I spent my career in an office dealing with figures.

                      All teaching was pointless until I came to realise the secret was not to try to comprehend how figures worked but simply to slavishly follow the formulae - understanding came later on. And some facility.

                      At work, before the advent of calculators I used to enjoy the challenge of adding up all three columns of L.s.d. at once instead of one at a time.
                      But algebra was always a huge problem. Was I ever told that the point of it was to train the mind to think logically?

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