Riots

[Ariosto]

Two personal views from Gary Yonge and David Lammy, MP for Tottenham.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/14/young-british-rioters-political-actions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...am-mark-duggan

Two very interesting articles, Am51

Yes, I do think the riots elswhere would never have happened *at this time* had the police not made such a mess of the Duggan shooting and probable murder.

I'm a little surprised at the Lammy article as I know him and get the feeling he has changed his opinion a lot in the last few days. Normally he and I disagree quite a lot, but now I'm not so sure.

[Serial_Apologist]

Two personal views from Gary Yonge and David Lammy, MP for Tottenham.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/14/young-british-rioters-political-actions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...am-mark-duggan

Certainly Gary's right in his third to last paragraph where he accuses the left of failing to shape up. Lammy's interesting, and we should listen to him. The one neglected elephant in the room is that capitalism as a way of producing and distributing wealth and opportunities unevenly will go on reproducing and rekindling its injustices and inconsistencies as long as it lasts. Somebody always has to be at the bottom of a pile.

[Ariosto]

Certainly Gary's right in his third to last paragraph where he accuses the left of failing to shape up. Lammy's interesting, and we should listen to him. The one neglected elephant in the room is that capitalism as a way of producing and distributing wealth and opportunities unevenly will go on reproducing and rekindling its injustices and inconsistencies as long as it lasts. Somebody always has to be at the bottom of a pile.

The problem is that when those at the bottom of the pile get to be a large group i.e. hundreds of thousands of people, then we head for the sort of trouble we have just witnessed.

[aeolium]

The one neglected elephant in the room is that capitalism as a way of producing and distributing wealth and opportunities unevenly will go on reproducing and rekindling its injustices and inconsistencies as long as it lasts.

S_A, here is another interesting article from the Grauniad which provides some historical perspective on the changes in the structure of capitalism since the war. Bretton-Woods was far from perfect - Keynes I don't think wanted a system in which the dollar acted as a reserve currency and could build up huge trade deficits - but it was relatively much more stable than the current wretched system, and the huge inequalities that have built up in the last three or so decades were not present (at least in the developed world). It really needs a new Bretton Woods to regulate the financial system but the system is now so broken, the politicians hopelessly tied to the plutocrats and no-one around with the foresight of Keynes that it isn't going to happen.

[Serial_Apologist]

The problem is that when those at the bottom of the pile get to be a large group i.e. hundreds of thousands of people, then we head for the sort of trouble we have just witnessed.

We (ordinary folk) are many; they (the ultra-privileged) are few. Between us and them is the state machinery which, in the last analysis, always acts to take care of their interests - property and power. Hence my doleful remark about an inadequate left response: the kind of leadership which would offer meaningful direction to the self-destructive violence of the underclass.

[Ariosto]

We (ordinary folk) are many; they (the ultra-privileged) are few. Between us and them is the state machinery which, in the last analysis, always acts to take care of their interests - property and power. Hence my doleful remark about an inadequate left response: the kind of leadership which would offer meaningful direction to the self-destructive violence of the underclass.

I do agree that the response on the left has been rather inadequate. Trouble is that we on this forum will now get a lot of right wing propaganda aimed at us. Just wait for it!!

[Serial_Apologist]

S_A, here is another interesting article from the Grauniad which provides some historical perspective on the changes in the structure of capitalism since the war. Bretton-Woods was far from perfect - Keynes I don't think wanted a system in which the dollar acted as a reserve currency and could build up huge trade deficits - but it was relatively much more stable than the current wretched system, and the huge inequalities that have built up in the last three or so decades were not present (at least in the developed world). It really needs a new Bretton Woods to regulate the financial system but the system is now so broken, the politicians hopelessly tied to the plutocrats and no-one around with the foresight of Keynes that it isn't going to happen.

Thanks for that, aeolium - I'll give it a read in a moment. I probably sound like an old Leninist; the situation, post 2008, makes it easy to resort to the old rhetoric; but new ways forward have to be thought, and above all thought through, unlike in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. This and other debates on this forum are offering the kinds of insights we are in need of as a starting point, I believe.

[Serial_Apologist]

I do agree that the response on the left has been rather inadequate. Trouble is that we on this forum will now get a lot of right wing propaganda aimed at us. Just wait for it!!

I really don't think we need worry about that, Aristo. Here we have resort to words; people can crucify themselves with their words. Remember, since they keep reminding us: these postings are there for all eternity - and we're prepared I hope to stand by ours and admit when we were wrong.

[BetweenTheStaves]

..... The one neglected elephant in the room is that capitalism as a way of producing and distributing wealth and opportunities unevenly will go on reproducing and rekindling its injustices and inconsistencies as long as it lasts. ....

Please tell me what this sort of statement contributes to the benefit of the thread? It's the same old record going round and round and round. We all know that you are a communist...do you have to keep ramming it down our throats? It is quite sad, really, to see the little left clique get together ad nauseam for a group hug all the time.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

..... The one neglected elephant in the room is that capitalism as a way of producing and distributing wealth and opportunities unevenly will go on reproducing and rekindling its injustices and inconsistencies as long as it lasts.

....Please tell me what this sort of statement contributes to the benefit of the thread? It's the same old record going round and round and round. We all know that you are a communist...do you have to keep ramming it down our throats? It is quite sad, really, to see the little left clique get together ad nauseam for a group hug all the time.

Whatever the political leanings of our friend, please consider the possiblity that there might be merit in SA's statement. I don't think it should be dismissed as looney left extremism.

[Serial_Apologist]

We all know that you are a communist...do you have to keep ramming it down our throats?

We all know that you are not ... do you have to keep ramming it down our throats?

[Ariosto]

Please tell me what this sort of statement contributes to the benefit of the thread? It's the same old record going round and round and round. We all know that you are a communist...do you have to keep ramming it down our throats? It is quite sad, really, to see the little left clique get together ad nauseam for a group hug all the time.

So we all know you as a fascist sympathiser, or at the very least a right wing extremist.

I bet you were on the old BBC boards and one of those National Front people who were for ever putting up those incendary posts, and trying to incite responses. But we know a troll when we see one.

[BetweenTheStaves]

So we all know you as a fascist sympathiser, or at the very least a right wing extremist.

I bet you were on the old BBC boards and one of those National Front people who were for ever putting up those incendary posts, and trying to incite responses. But we know a troll when we see one.

That is a very childish and immature response. You know nothing about me. My posts speak for themselves. Nowhere have I advocated any ultra-right wing views. Nor have I kept banging on about 'fascist Thatcherite councils' ...a very childish petulant comment of yours that contributed zero to an otherwise excellent thread. Suggest before you start slinging mud that you take a long hard look in the mirror.

[eighthobstruction]

YEP ENOUGH OF THE BANGING....[as my loony neighbour responded while 8thO was DIYing, "Ere , when you gonna stop banging them stones", [now a much used phrase in the lexicon of the 8thO household]....

As a Liberal/Socialist/sometimes Neo Fascist Humanist with a penchant for the Draconian Party [to extend the anology] may I say that I have juggled these stones so often that all I have left is Ballast....

[Mahlerei]

I see the old stereotypes are still being bandied about. As a statement about capitalism, S_A's post makes perfect sense.