Riots

[BBMmk2]

The world we live in, it seems to thrive on debt. Personally all these thugs should be brought to justce and go to a boot camp.

It still amazes me how this all started? Or was therer some undercurrent flowing that we didn't see?

[Simon]

Thanks, Lat.

But for all the different thoughts expressed on here, and some most profoundly, for me it still goes back fundamentally to a lack of boundaries - the idea that rights are all-important and responsibility irrelevant. As BTS says, the roots are in 1960s liberalism and that philosophy of the pink, well-meaning but incredibly naive left has been extended every since. Yes, the unfettered profiteering of 1980s was a negative side-effect of an otherwise good government, which has remained with us in the banks and the City and which needs weeding out, but the deification of yooman rites has been on the same side of the coin and is equally as pernicious.

Unless people control their own inappropriate behaviour then society must have the right and the power to do it for them; without this, not much will change, IMO. And that should apply to every level of society.

[BBMmk2]

Unless people control their own inappropriate behaviour then society must have the right and the power to do it for them; without this, not much will change, IMO. And that should apply to every level of society.[/QUOTE]

Well said there Simon!

[Lateralthinking1]

Plenty of undercurrent and it hasn't gone away.

I agree that the contributors to Any Answers were real and constructive. The first guy who said that he knew some of the rioters was very good on causes. Another mentioned Grand Theft Auto and other violent media and I was really pleased he did so. A third who was more interested in solutions actively worked with people he called "the lost" to get them to learn to mend bikes and spoke about the turnaround. It was also suggested that there were many army bases standing empty where some of the lost could be housed, not for boot camp as such but for some discipline and supervised hard work. This is a much better solution than the removal of benefits and the turfing of people out of their homes, neither of which are likely to lead to a reduction in crime.

I think there is some scope for reviewing 60s liberalism. However, we can't start from the point of view that it was all bad because it wasn't - some of the changes were essential - nor can we easily reverse the position we are all in now. These are complex issues. One might talk about "free love" - Hitchens did - but you need to bear in mind that one of the biggest contributors there was the development of contraception rather than legislation. On paper, divorce becoming easier might seem sad or even bad but can you really say when you look at some of these adults that their staying together would help their children? And more equal rights for women were both absolutely right and inevitable but of course there is a price to be paid for that economically too.

Personally, I was always the sort of liberal who was uneasy about the relaxation of censorship on violent material. To me, that was the mistake of that era because it affected the nature of all kinds of relationships just when things should have become easier.

[eighthobstruction]

>>>'Unless people control their own inappropriate behaviour then society must have the right and the power to do it for them'<<<

SHUDDER....well lets hope society is very very very clever then in future, because Society has not been particularly clever recently, in fact it is society that has got it's self in trouble recently....what stupid word society is when you use it like a scatter gun....

[Ariosto]

This is the sort of easy platitude that makes my teeth grind. It does absolutely nothing to throw light on the complexity of the human condition and I don't know which "people" they are that go around being afraid to admit it.

I would have thought that was obvious.

Of course I am frightened about the human capacity for evil. History is full of enough examples. I taught for nearly 40 years before retirement and am only too well aware of the potential of people to behave badly if circumstances allow it. I am writing as a resident of Wootton Bassett where we have just witnessed our last repatriation. Luckily there are plenty of examples of unselfish and socially responsible behaviour to give me cause to be generally optimistic about our society.

Maybe you have been part of the problem, as its been happening for most of the 40 years you have been teaching.

[amateur51]

Very true, IMO. Good to read such a concise and rational post form A Hinton.

Taking this further, can the older members recall when credit cards and the whole idea of borrowing to get something you couldn't afford became common? I seemed to gather in the past from family that the only thing people used to have on credit years ago was their house, i.e. with a mortgage.

As someone who feels towards the greed and falsity of the banking system in the same way as the most ardent lefty on here, it appears to me that almost everybody has got on this bandwagon of debt and credit and now they can't stop it from rolling away with them.

Was there always massive government debt, too?

Here's a set of interesting charts, answering Simon's question - chart 2 is the important one.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/debt_brief.php

But Simon has me on block so could someone please quote from this message so that he gets the information?

Many thanks

[Simon]

Maybe you have been part of the problem, as its been happening for most of the 40 years you have been teaching.

Lol. That will teach you, gurnemanz, to respond to "Ariosto" and expect either intelligence or civility!

I used to have him on "ignore", as I do with a couple of others whose posts are pointless, but he changed his screenname and became visible again and I haven't bothered since. Actually, he can be quiite diverting in a sort of harmless, buffoonish way.

----------

As for eigthobstruction, "society" shouldn't need much explanation, unless you are more "challenged" that I'd hitherto believed. It is, as Lady Thatcher pointed out (and was of course immediately misunderstood by those who don't bother to think about things but who merely open their mouths and bray), merely an accepted way of describing as a group the individuals who live in a community.

[mercia]

Re: the "riots" - I hope all the punishments/sentences being handed out are fair and proportionate. Chucking bricks at the police and setting fire to cars has got to be worse than the 14-year old who, I think I heard correctly, has been given a 9-month referral (whatever that means) for stealing a packet of chewing gum.

[Anna]

Here's a set of interesting charts, answering Simon's question - chart 2 is the important one.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/debt_brief.php

But Simon has me on block so could someone please quote from this message so that he gets the information?

Many thanks

OK, I have, as requested, reposted this so as Simon can see it.

Can I just say that supposedly grown men putting each other on ignore is, quite frankly, ridiculous. There are some people here who I would rather not read, I just scroll on by.......

Now, before this once again degenerates into Form III Beta scrapping in the playground, be sensible and play nicely.

[Simon]

Can I just say that supposedly grown men putting each other on ignore is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

That's your opinion, to which you are of course entitled - but have you thought it through fully? Thought not!

I, on the other hand, have found it useful for several reasons, not simply to avoid reading what for me are largely worthless posts. For example, one doesn't have to bother deleting large chunks before printing out sections of topics on the occasion when one wishes to keep a reference. Moreover, it also helps me not to be tempted to respond to certain posters by giving them the treatment they deserve, but thereby derailing the thread for others.

I don't come here to have fights, but, hopefully, to read all shades of opinion, sensibly and courteously expressed. Fortunately, that is almost always possible. Judicious use of the said feature makes it even more likely.

[Simon]

Re: the "riots" - I hope all the punishments/sentences being handed out are fair and proportionate. Chucking bricks at the police and setting fire to cars has got to be worse than the 14-year old who, I think I heard correctly, has been given a 9-month referral (whatever that means) for stealing a packet of chewing gum.

Indeed. And I hope I'm not alone in being uneasy about the people who are about to lose their homes... I'm all for parental responsibility, but that's a major step and seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction of the worst kind. Other criimes are just as bad as looting: drug pushing, for example. Not to mention deliberately fiddling your expenses to defraud the taxpayer. Porno videos out of the public purse? Moats?

[Simon]

Thanks for the chart and the info, Am51.

[Ariosto]

Lol. That will teach you, gurnemanz, to respond to "Ariosto" and expect either intelligence or civility!

I used to have him on "ignore", as I do with a couple of others whose posts are pointless, but he changed his screenname and became visible again and I haven't bothered since. Actually, he can be quiite diverting in a sort of harmless, buffoonish way.

Simon, there are times when I maybe mistakenly think that there is common ground between us (OK, not very often) but I despair at your childish response. And Anna has got it right, it is time you grew up.

But there is aways hope even for a character like you. I never totally give up hope. But of course it does make me wonder if its worth being a member of this forum.

[Anna]

For example, one doesn't have to bother deleting large chunks before printing out sections of topics on the occasion when one wishes to keep a reference. .

Printing out stuff? OMG, you mean you keep a record of this stuff? How, like, totally, err, odd. Keep a reference, why?

I think I will watch the Prom tonight, the NYO, which should be a lot of fun and a bit of light relief after this week's awful happenings.