Riots

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  • Simon

    My own view however is that, for the child to develop into the disturbed individuals for whom violence is a welcome thrill, some kind of brutalisation has to take place, whether it be physical punishment or repeated humiliation.
    SA is right as far as this goes, but it isn't as simple as that, and it shouldn't be used as an argument against physical punishment of an appropriate nature, which the LIbs often try to do. Nobody wants to revert to the Victorian horrors of schools, but the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

    Children need limits - it makes them feel secure - and when these are absent, or vague, or changing, the security disappears. Add to this a diet of not really appropriate media output and possibly absent or uncaring parents, and the resulting need for attention can lead to just the sort of behaviour that can result equally from physical brutality.

    Show me an unbiddable child and I'll show you a family that is in some way dysfunctional, whether it is a rich one or a poor one in economic terms.

    As to both parents going out to work - well, I'm afraid I'm old-fashioned on that one. Babies need their mothers, and that's an end of it. Just because parents want a bigger house, or two new cars, or all the latest gadgets on credit, and can't afford them without both working, has meant that so many young children suffer - not wickedly, but in terms of deprivation of affection and family presence.

    Yes, the liberal ideal means that we should all be able to have what we want, when we want it, by right, whether we can afford it or not, and to hell with the consequences of people who suffer along the way, including our children.

    But the moral ideal says "hang on, let's wait till we can afford it, and let's grow together with fewer material things but within the bounds of a loving family that eats, lives and talks together. And if that means that one of us has to stay at home till the kids are a bit older, then one of us will do so."

    Comment

    • Anna

      Originally posted by Simon View Post
      Most of us know exactly the difference is, Anna - but you won't get an answer from Mahlerei - it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't fit in with his worldview... !
      How do you know? Do you speak for Mahlerei? No, I thought not.

      As to corporal punishment, yes at Juniors we were scared sh*tless of Miss Katie Price the Headmistress, very, very, small and very, very Welsh and fierce but one look from her could turn us into Lot's wife. Or worse. We never sinned again.

      Comment

      • french frank
        Administrator/Moderator
        • Feb 2007
        • 30577

        Originally posted by Simon View Post
        Yes, the liberal ideal means that we should all be able to have what we want, when we want it, by right, whether we can afford it or not, and to hell with the consequences of people who suffer along the way, including our children.
        That seems to me like greedy consumerism rather than the liberal ideal. A specious type of argument to set it up against the 'moral ideal' as if no one with liberal/left wing views could possibly entertain such 'fine' ideals.
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

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        • Osborn

          Originally posted by cavatina View Post
          After tonight's concert-- like I would after any other concert-- I walked down to the dumpsters behind the High Street Kensington Tesco and gathered discarded day-old packaged food to give away to the homeless people I come across on my walk home.
          If that's the truth wasn't it totally wrong & very, very silly of you - you may well be on Tesco's CCTV recording. Saying you're Cavatina & you're special so it's all right for you to go looting & thieving but wrong for everyone else, won't wash:

          "A woman who took food from bins outside a Tesco store is facing a crown court trial for theft. Sacha Hall, 21, is accused of helping herself to items including potato waffles, pies and ham that had been thrown out following a power cut.
          She was later arrested by police, who took her from her home in handcuffs on suspicion of what is called theft by finding. The offence carries a maximum seven-year prison sentence." D Mail Feb '11

          Be careful.

          Comment

          • burning dog
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 1511

            It's worth pointing out that most teenagers are not taking part in any disorder and are much more frightened than most of us, especially if they live in a 'sink' estate.

            Comment

            • Anna

              Originally posted by burning dog View Post
              It's worth pointing out that most teenagers are not taking part in any disorder and are much more frightened than most of us, especially if they live in a 'sink' estate.
              Well said, and I think, time for everyone to turn off and do something else, preferably constructive and gather their thoughts. Or even, can I be really radical here - listen to Radio 3 whilst doing so?

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              • Mahlerei

                Good advice, Anna. Think I'll put on some Messiaen :)

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                • Anna

                  Originally posted by Mahlerei View Post
                  Good advice, Anna. Think I'll put on some Messiaen :)
                  On No! Look I picked up today in a charity shop for 50p Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde! Probably total rubbish, Naxos, NSO Ireland, Michael Halasz. And I'm totally off topic

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                  • Mr Pee
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 3285

                    This from the Telegraph's rolling coverage of the riots:-

                    18.14:- Hazel Blears's name is trending on Twitter after she said on Sky News "What we need to ask is: why are these kids not at school?" For the record, it's currently the summer holidays.
                    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

                    Mark Twain.

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                    • Mahlerei

                      Anna

                      Do you know this?

                      Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                      Comment

                      • Anna

                        Originally posted by Mahlerei View Post
                        No. I don't. What worries me is that I am enjoying Mahler when me German is so rusty (I left him out in the rain, now he creaks)

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                        • amateur51

                          Originally posted by Simon View Post
                          Calum's linked "summary of ther reasons why" is interesting, despite wheeling out Ken Livingstone for the usual idiotic comments ...
                          I thought that Ken Livingstone's comments were well-expressed and characteristically thoughtful and grounded in the reality of living in a big city during a recession

                          But then Simon's bangs on about living in arcadia and has little or no experience of inner city life

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                          • amateur51

                            Originally posted by Panjandrum View Post
                            The deeper root cause is surely the inability to enforce discipline or inculcate the need for discipline and social responsibility in parents and would-be parents. While I am, au fond a libertarian, the withdrawal of benefits from the parents of those found guilty of these or other criminal acts could be a start on the right track.
                            What an extremely good idea Panjandrum. Drive the family further into poverty, possibly make them homeless, so then social workers get involved, kids get put into care, parents get put into private sector Bed & Breakfast which will cost the Council and DWP oodles more money AND you'll have ruined several lives at the same time.

                            OR the family will take to crime, maybe get involved in drugs to relieve their despair etc etc.

                            Such a good idea, so well thought through

                            Comment

                            • amateur51

                              Originally posted by BetweenTheStaves
                              Nice idea, Anna, but many parents couldn't care less and certainly wouldn't attend.
                              And you know this for a fact?

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                              • Anna

                                Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
                                I
                                But then Simon's bangs on about living in arcadia and has little or no experience of inner city life
                                Actually, nor do I, heart face. I live in a rural idyll, but I think I have la raison d'etre to acknowledge what goes on in our haybarns may be replicated elsewhere. You know, London is not the centre of the universe is it? Us yokels still have a lot of issues to deal with which you seem to ignore.

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