Riots

[Lateralthinking1]

However, the real root causes of most of society's ills - these riots included - lies with a) the philosophy of rights becoming more important than responsibilities and b) the lack of boundaries to freedom - boundaries that have been needed throughout human history by every civilised society.

I would be surprised if anyone could disagree with this.

[Lateralthinking1]

....This guy doesn't. Oh thank the lord someone slightly influential has said it. Thought it was just us:

"There is a culture of entitlement in the UK, says David Wilson, professor of criminology at Birmingham City University and a former prison governor.

"But it's not just about the underclass - it's about politicians, it's about bankers, it's about footballers.

"It's not just about a particular class, it permeates all levels of society. When we see politicians claiming for flat-screen TVs and getting jailed for fiddling their expenses, it's clear that young people of all classes aren't being given appropriate leadership.""

This is rather excellent in bringing it all together. I am not sure though they should use the word "competing". Most could see some truths in all parts of it although our individual emphases would differ: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

[Osborn]

The main question is whether a new chapter in the sequence of events might suggest a new thread where posts refer to the present situation.

I'd rather it wasn't restarted - at least at the moment. It won't achieve anything & a Radio 3 Forum is the wrong place.

[Panjandrum]

"But it's not just about the underclass - it's about politicians, it's about bankers, it's about footballers."

I would go so far as to state that the culture surrounding football matches is the single most pernicious influence in society today. Five minutes watching the average game will convince you that there is no respect for authority among players, managers and spectators alike. Can we be surprised that this spills over into society at large with the inevitable outcome we are now witnessing?

[burning dog]

Football seems to be a tad popular in Spain and they don't send referees many Christmas cards or applaud the opposition long and loud, but they have protests like this, not much covered by the media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Spanish_protests

"In Madrid, Barcelona, Malaga and other cities 21 May started with a minute of silence followed by cheers and applause.[Smaller cities, such as Granada, decided to start before midnight to avoid disturbing the neighbors."

[Anna]

I fully agree with Simon's #314 and lack of boundaries. In one of my first posts I mentioned lack of parenting, lack of fathers, lack of discipline, lack of respect, this is the society that we have all paid a part in creating. This is the aspect that interests me, lack of morals and lack of responsibility. Possibly, and trying to get away from the usual Bullingdon Club responses as none of those 11 year olds in Court nor their parents would have even heard of it, maybe these are subjects for the Ideas MB.

Also, very perturbing in clips and interviews of the looters, a total lack of education it seems in some, unable to string a coherent sentence together let alone knowing who the PM is. What's happened in the schools?

Edit: Agree totally with protests such as the Spanish one just flagged up. Somebody wrote, re the looting by the young children "It was like Lord of the Flies dressed in Adidas"

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

ere yer go a summary of reasons why ...

[Lateralthinking1]

OK. I watched two and a half hours of the debate. It has made me feel calmer. I realised that this had almost nothing to do with the speakers or what they were putting forward. It was all about Parliament itself. The history. Its centrality. The manner in which MPs are required to address each other formally. Civilly. Most of our elected representatives fall very far short of our wishes both in personal behaviour and in policy. The required formality, archaic, almost forces them into a more authoritative framework. The authority of the Parliamentary system. So much for me and my preference for the look and sound of order. It is unlikely to make any impact on those who choose rioting. Everyone talks a lot about change for better and for worse. There isn't a person in this country who thinks that things would be at their best just as they are. In what became a circular discussion, partially about whether the rioters were simply criminals or motivated by a wider malaise, I think we may all have missed this crucial point. There is certainly a grey area and it is likely to be in the grey matter, such as it is, of the individuals themselves.

Call it vague. Most of them are, whatever the belligerent certainties of their expression. I would call it change. Who could seriously argue that they didn't want to change things on one simplistic level or another? Chaos theory. Just go "mental". It's a journey. We don't know if we are heading off to our own personal heaven or hell but, whatever the case, life will have changed because it has to. Well maybe and maybe not. A lot of things have changed. Buildings are now rubble. Lives have been shattered. You can almost touch the shock waves of fear and fury. Oh yeah, and some geezer up the road has a few plasmas he wants to sell off. Elsewhere, it all looks fairly static. The cuts continue. The prospects remain bleak. The sentences are still lenient. People are back shopping in Marks and Sparks. So England declares in its Palladium way "The show must go on". Time to get out the lawnmower. The BIG question is whether this will steady the ship or lead just to storm after storm. And the answer in the longer term will be what tells us how political this was and is. Currently even the rioters don't know. They are becoming more conscious by the hour but to what extent do they have capacity for a conscience and where will it fall? Rights or responsibilities?

Political or not, there is something about most of this having been focussed on overpriced goods. Some have simply grabbed and thought "great, free". The bulk thieves are setting up their own "shops" and trading in the gear at a "decent" price. Not that they know it but this very process strikes somewhat at all the advertising hype. It brings these goods back down towards their truer value and that, of course, is extraordinarily ironic. These commodities of status so revered are losing their allure right at the point of looting. As soon as they become financially more accessible, they can hardly be godlike symbols of pride and riches, can they? A fantasy - mostly horrific - became a reality as windows smashed and cities went up in flames. Innocents were the losers. As for the perpetrators, their pyrotechnics will quickly feel like a pyrrhic victory. I am quite sure. What they have stolen from themselves is a further chance to escape from the reality that most things in life, even plasmas, are actually rather mundane. That could turn out to be the biggest shock felt by anyone. Having got it all, they are just about to get it and it is unlikely to feel of much worth!

[Stillhomewardbound]

From the House of Lords, Rowan Williams aka. Archbish of Canterbury:

"Can we once again build a society which takes seriously the tasks of educating citizens, not consumers, not cogs in an economic system, but citizens? … What we have seen is a breakdown not of society as such but a breakdown of a sense of civic identity, shared identity, shared responsibility."

Indeed.

[Anna]

ere yer go a summary of reasons why ...

With respect Calum, that's a summary which could apply in some cases, I think my point is the general malaise in Society, the complete lack of morals which troubles me, which affects a graduate from a wealthy home to a scaffolder with two young children, and what morals will he pass on to those children? Maybe I'm hopelessly out of step, I don't have designer goods, neither do I have a plasma tv, smartphone, ipad etc., they're not necessary to me so I fail to understand why they are necessary to others (ok, I understand the trendy trainers part of it in relation to teenagers)

I do know, as children, we were taught not to swear, lie or thieve both by our parents and by the school, the penalty being a clip round the ear or hours of detention. Also, as I asked before, what has gone wrong with education, why are children being allowed to leave school barely able to read or worse, unable to express themselves? Something has gone so wrong it's almost incomprehensible

Edit: Sorry, crossed with ShB

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree, I think it has been a very good thread ... no really nasty stuff and even a bit of fun ...and we all bounce ideas off each other in our own sometimes hard-hitting ways and it is great to be able to agree on that with S-A for once ... sorry if I inadvertently insulted you, in one of my posts, by wrongly inferring that you might be a 'liberal' , S-A ... profuse and sincere apologies!

[Simon]

Calum's linked "summary of ther reasons why" is interesting, despite wheeling out Ken Livingstone for the usual idiotic comments and Christina Patterson's Indie inaccuracy. Max Hastings is nearest the mark, IMO - and I'm not usually a fan of his.

Arch. of C. also scores a hit - linking comsumerism - and thereby the media and its unholy alliance with the marketers - to lack of real citizenship feelings.

[Panjandrum]

Maybe I'm hopelessly out of step, I don't have designer goods, neither do I have a plasma tv, smartphone, ipad etc., they're not necessary to me so I fail to understand why they are necessary to others (ok, I understand the trendy trainers part of it in relation to teenagers)

Come on -use your imagination! Same rationale applies: they're status symbols. They are a way of measuring my achievement versus yours.

[Anna]

Come on -use your imagination! Same rationale applies: they're status symbols. They are a way of measuring my achievement versus yours.

I'm afraid my only status symbol is the boxed set of Shostakovich's symphs by Kirill Kondrashin and the Moscow Phil on the Aulos label!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Also, very perturbing in clips and interviews of the looters, a total lack of education it seems in some, unable to string a coherent sentence together let alone knowing who the PM is. What's happened in the schools?

Please don't blame the schools for the inadequacy of some parents.