Riots

[eighthobstruction]

ff....thanks

[Lateralthinking1]

I would just like to thank Byas'd Opinion for the post with the link about the Walworth Road. It was really excellent. Very thoughtful and balanced. It really cut through the media lens to bring a feeling of absolute reality. I know all the streets the writer mentions. Since the late 1960s they have been my fundamental compass of where urban Britain is at root and how the politicians are doing. I am going to keep it for future reference.

[Mr Pee]

I don't want this forum being invaded by outsiders who have spotted a controversial topic being discussed and want to join in for a fight. I noted a number of 'referrals' from a couple of days ago which came from a link on another website.

I don't really understand your thinking, FF. If anybody comes on here "for a fight" then you can delete their posts or block them. But closing a thread on an important subject such as this simply because it may be attracting some new posters seems rather contrary. The more the merrier!! Either Platform3 is for discussion of anything and everything, or it's not. And I'm sure this thread wil fizzle out in a few days anyway.

[Anna]

I can see ff's reasoning, we don't want any more nutters here, we've got enough of our own! But, this in the most significant thing that has happened (internally) in the UK for years, in fact it could almost be said that we are on the brink of a Revolution and the whole social fabric is being rent asunder and people generally are disturbed, upset and in some cases very frightened. But, the Umpire's decision is final. Perhaps she could PM the link to those who are interested in joining in elsewhere? Actually, I do think this thread has been well behaved with very little mud-slinging. Think what it would have been like on the old BBC boards!

[Stillhomewardbound]

FF, I agree in principal with your being minded to close the thread, however, can I recommend that you let it run for a further 48 hours to cover the parliamentary recall and reaction to today's debates.

These are truly exceptional and challenging times for this country (and I very much include NI, Scotland and Wales in all of this) and I think most of us here are genuinely shaken at what we've seen unfold.

The better part of this thread reveals people looking for answers and some real insight, rather than serial bigots wanting to fight old battles.

In that spirit, can I add the following reflections:

** Our apparent societal breakdown has been visible on a most global scale including all Malaysia who are horrified at the video clip of the young student being mugged for a second time. In the sub continent also where they have followed the death of the three men mown down. The UK has never look so unattractive and biggoted in modern times.

** I trivialised the riots earlier as the 'Retail Riots' which is indeed what they were in their early stages, however days 2, 3 and 4 have revealed serious fault lines along racial lines. British blacks going head to head with Turks and Kurds while last night's news had scenes of the repugnant presence and influence of the self-styled English Defence League, so called 'patriots' whose idea of standing strong for their communities starts by getting very largered up in the pub and, as last night in Eltham, hurling objects at the police. Incidentally, there were no rioters in the area. How quickly that lot came out in their true colours.

** Is this a nation that is broken forever? Can it admit its injustices, its disregard for society and civility? Can it transform it's culture and pull back for the brink of unbridled commercialism that puts profiteering before people? Can it acknowledge that freedome comes at a price and that democracy is something that has to be worked, and worked by every one? I can only ask.

[french frank]

I don't really understand your thinking, FF. If anybody comes on here "for a fight" then you can delete their posts or block them. But closing a thread on an important subject such as this simply because it may be attracting some new posters seems rather contrary. The more the merrier!! Either Platform3 is for discussion of anything and everything, or it's not. And I'm sure this thread wil fizzle out in a few days anyway.

Thank you very much, Mr Pee. I've already lost over an hour checking up on what was going on when I have other things to do. I don't want to be sitting at the computer watching out in case there's any trouble going on. And I confess to being alarmed at the idea of people joining the forum purely to join a contentious thread not relevant to R3 in any way.

Yes, this is an important subject and I have no concerns about any relevant opinions that are expressed. But it can get to the point where nothing new, nothing thoughtful, nothing that is informed, nothing that takes the debate forward, is being posted - and opposing sides start the putdowns and snide comments. If the subject is being discussed in a balanced, serious way, I think there's little chance of outsiders being interested anyway.

I offer no suggestions as to why the discussion has deteriorated a little in the past couple of days ...


In any case, if I do close a thread, I usually have no objection to a new one being started straight away, perhaps from a fresh angle based on a situation that has moved on. It can have the result of cooling things, and no one is deprived of a platform (3 or otherwise) on which to express their views.

[french frank]

I have no objection to the new events being discussed, here or on a separate thread. I don't want to prevent debate on the subject.

[old khayyam]

This thread may be coming to the end of its natural life.

If/when I decide to close it, I can point members in the direction of another forum (no connection with Radio 3 or any related subjects) where people have been discussing the same subject. The attention of those members has been drawn to this thread, and they have been weighing up what is being said here with a semi-thought of joining this forum and pitching in. I would suggest people go over there instead.


The Radio 3 Forum has become, for its size, quite a high-profile forum. Whereas Platform 3 is indeed for general topics, perhaps people should reflect on why they joined this forum in the first place and make more contributions to those relevant topics and fewer to the open house that is Platform 3.

Agreed. This is always going to be a contentious, and therefore poplular, topic; and, while the issue is still 'live', we might expect opinions to be forming as fast as the situation changes, or something. I would prefer people to wait a day or two before throwing their next tuppence. But yes, Platform3 is going to be a bit busier than other threads for a while. But at the end of the day, no-one has to read it if they dont like it. This will in fact be my last contribution to this thread.








(..for now)

[Serial_Apologist]

I understand ff's point about closing the thread now. I would certainly like it to remain open until the parliamentary debate can be commented on, i.e. for maybe 1 day? As one of the, I hope, not serial bigots () - and most certainly not one of the "liberals" contributing (Scotty ) I would sincerely wish to thank all, of all persuasions, who have written to the discussion so far; we can all learn from having our preconceptions challenged now and again, otherwise we stagnate.

S-A

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...ah i went to a lunchtime concert yesterday, a soprano and wonderful accompanist, everyone said what a relief to enjoy something truly wonderful instead of the riots ...

i would agree nuff said, but recall that for all the similar judgements of criminality at the immediate time the Brixton and Toxteth riots were followed by Mr Heseltine's report to cabinet and his urban deprivation programme ... the real fear we feel at the sight and experience of rioting hoodlums is temporary .... do the poor always have to be with us in such a worsening inequality .... and i think the point made that the riots are multi ethnic but could become racist reflects a frightening possibility .... i am off to a nice bourgeois riot to protest the banishment of jazz programmes to the wee hours of the morning, when. like everyone else, i am obsessively watching 24hr news for further signs of total global collapse ...

for what it is worth i think this thread has stood the forum proud ... thanks to everyone

[scottycelt]

I agree, I think it has been a very good thread ... no really nasty stuff and even a bit of fun ...and we all bounce ideas off each other in our own sometimes hard-hitting ways and it is great to be able to agree on that with S-A for once ... sorry if I inadvertently insulted you, in one of my posts, by wrongly inferring that you might be a 'liberal' , S-A ... profuse and sincere apologies!

[Simon]

I think it's been thought-provoking in one way, and depressing in another. Thought-provoking because of the rational and interesting comments by some, depressing because of how some seem so blinkered that they can only blame Lady Thatcher, News International and the government for everything.

I don't know about unpleasant or deteriorating - I have Am51 on ignore, so I can't see his posts, though there was one quoted by someone else that was down to his usual standard of pointless jibe.

However, the real root causes of most of society's ills - these riots included - lies with a) the philosophy of rights becoming more important than responsibilities and b) the lack of boundaries to freedom - boundaries that have been needed throughout human history by every civilised society. When these disappear, so does civilisation. The best post on the thread so far has been the following, so if the thread is to close, which may be a good idea now, it's worth re-quoting, from BTS:

As our world slides into the great darkness built and maintained by liberalism, only those of us remaining from an age of decency will mourn its passing. There is little to protect us from ourselves. A generation without morals or civility is an entree we have ordered from the menu of modern liberalism. We cannot act surprised when the waiter brings us the selection we have ourselves chosen.

[Chris Newman]

I don't really understand your thinking, FF. If anybody comes on here "for a fight" then you can delete their posts or block them. But closing a thread on an important subject such as this simply because it may be attracting some new posters seems rather contrary. The more the merrier!! Either Platform3 is for discussion of anything and everything, or it's not. And I'm sure this thread wil fizzle out in a few days anyway.

Unusually I stand in full agreement with Mr Pee on this one. We (Mr Pee and I) know that we disagree on details like the legacy of Mrs Thatcher but we are agreed that the current situation is extraordinarily important and needs discussion and being resolved peacefully as part of the national healing process.

As Anna says

Actually, I do think this thread has been well behaved with very little mud-slinging. Think what it would have been like on the old BBC boards!

[doversoul1]

ff’s post #308

But it can get to the point where nothing new, nothing thoughtful, nothing that is informed, nothing that takes the debate forward, is being posted

This is my feeling too. I think we have more or less said all we want to say about why this happened and what we thought about it as it unfolded. How about starting a thread about the new stage of the event? This way, the discussion will be more focused and will possibly avoid the thread diverting or reverting too much. And as for this thread:

Originally posted by aka Calum Da Jazbo

this thread has stood the forum proud ... thanks to everyone

[french frank]

Unusually I stand in full agreement with Mr Pee on this one. We (Mr Pee and I) know that we disagree on details like the legacy of Mrs Thatcher but we are agreed that the current situation is extraordinarily important and needs discussion and being resolved peacefully as part of the national healing process.

The main question is whether a new chapter in the sequence of events might suggest a new thread where posts refer to the present situation.

I draw attention to the final post on the Religion & Ethics poll thread:

"It seems to me far more intelligent for people to weigh up the individual topics and decide whether - from their position - they have anything positive to contribute. If not, stay away. This applies equally to people of right and left, religious and anti-religious. The exchange of opposing views is very valuable; the mere trashing of views you dislike and the disparaging of those who hold them isn't."