Riots

[Serial_Apologist]

Simon

Just seen on the news with one of the looters charged today being interviewed and who bitterly regreted his action as he has now secured his first conviction. Tellingly, this black youth was then asked by who took to the streets, he commented that the "police had it coming to them" a dn he wanted retribution given that he had previously been stopped and searched on more than 20 previous occasions without being charged. Judging from your remarks, Simon, I trust that you are white.

I find it very disappointing that the Left have been so silent on the social issues that have prompted the recent disturbances. So far, Ken Livingstone remains the only politician to have joined up the dots although many of the social commentators on Radio 4 similarly appear to have jumped to the same conclusions which elude the crasp of opportunists such as Cameron. Like it or not, a significant proportion of the lower income population have a serious issue with the significant gaps between the rich and the poor. There is a massive amount of resentment in society regarding this. This has been bourne out today by numerous interviews on the radio where people have actually come out in support of the rioters as they believe that this serves as an opportunity to illustrate the widening gap between the "haves" and "have nots. " Curious to to hear many looters opining that they were carrying out the crimes purely for the reason that the owners of commercial properties were rich and they were poor - no matter how misguided this logic is. These problems will presist as long as the symptons remain in place to continue economic apartheid. Irrespective of how you feel about these matters, it is obvious that the redistribution of wealth and significant cultural change to curtail the "get rich culture" remain the most sensible solutions. It is a shame that the majority of those taking to the streets are so uneducated and materialistic as to to direct their attention to stealing a new pair of trainers or a mobile phone as opposed to contributing in a manner which will serve to counter the economic injustices that currntly abound in 21st century Britain.

Ian

In any other time and place, I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you have written in this last message. Busy man though you are, I would strongly recommend you to go through this thread and read some of the more cogent contributions, especially imv those of Lateralthinking1.

The Buddha likened questions concerning life's meaning and origins to a man, shot through with an arrow, who refuses point blank to have it removed until he is satisfied with answers he wants about his assailant's age, employment, ethnicity and motivations - if you get my drift.

S-A

[Chris Newman]

Simon, it is difficult to ignore the legacy of Thatcher. Like her disciple Blair she appeared to pull the country up temporarily but at immense cost to its morality and morale. Her legacy is alive and kicking in all levels of society hence the cliched expression that "we're all Thatcher's children".

We have seen the former Tory prime minister's moral legacy at work in the Houses of Commons and Lords where the members adopted her "I am owed it and I want it now" philosophy so well that politics is regarded as a joke and politicians of all walks are seen as fiddlers. The last few months we have seen the rise of the generation of Thatcher's grandchildren.

I taught children in a time when parents were constantly told that we the teachers were incapable of doing our job and were failures. The result was a generation of pupils thought they could do what they liked. If we punished a dangerous or malicious child an angry parent was hammering on the Headteacher's door: "How dare you treat my child like that?"

She told parents to expect perfection whilst kicking the supports from under teachers. She peddled addlepated and selfish philosophies like "There is no such thing as society" and hinted that it was everyone for themselves. The children of the day grew up with attitudes that have now manifested themselves in their own children. This drive to be first and the devil take the hindmost attitude has bred an inevitable rise in aggression and bullying. People believed her famous quotes about "no such thing as society" and that the "Good Samaritan could only engage in his act of kindness because he was rich."

She built up people's expectations on foundations that were based on greed, the thought that we had automatic rights to wealth with bribes of worthless shares in the family silver she flogged off quickly to other countries thus losing Britain's control in its infra-structure.

This is not left-wing dogma it is just part of many people's regret for the stupid, short-sighted actions of a dogmatic old harridan. There were heroes in the Tory party like Macmillan and Howe who told her the truth. It is fortunate that Howe told her publicly to go when he did otherwise she could have worked herself into a unmovable position. We must work hard now to repair society (Cameron recognises that it exists and that it is broken). There is an urgent need for a national government as we had in WWII where the parties put their vested interests aside and carry out the repairs.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't blame either Church. What a load of rubbish! What evidence is there that any of the rioting and looting activities of the past few days and future who knows how many years can conceivably be attributed, even in part, to the activities and/or stances of either of those Churches or indeed any other specific Church?

[...]


the notion that some little Church or other be blamed for any part of it is surely beyond risible.

The collossal presence that various branches of Pentecostalism have among the British caribbean population has escaped your notice, ahinton? They are not little: massively financed by their own congregations - and very often from America - they have burgeoned and are still burgeoning exponentially.

I find your post remarkable.

S-A

[scottycelt]

Me, I blame the Church of Scotland - it's all part of a sinister plot from Edinburgh, you'll see...

Well, Edinburgh makes a pleasant change from Brussels, Simon ...

[Nick Armstrong]

Mr P.

Yes, I was amused at that post, too!

We may not agree very often with old Caliban, but he does have the knack of giving us a laugh or two every so often. :-)

Enough of the "old" !!!!

[handsomefortune]

don't pigeon hole the rioter serial apologist!

[Ian Thumwood]

Between the Staves

Of course I cannot confirm that the interviewee was telling the truth but it is hugely credible. How can you expect people to respect the instruments of the State when these instruments themselves are found not to respect the same laws. This is borne out equally by the Lawrence enquiry and tonight's images on TV of the police meting out their own form of ready retribution against some boys on bikes who were thought to be looters. The recent collaboration of the Metropolitan Police Force and the News of the World in the hphone hacking scenario tells us that there are some fundemental flaws and huge errors of judgement within this organisation. I don't doubt for a minute than the same issues probably also exist with the bobby on the beat even though I would be the first to recognise that his job is a far from easy one.

Chris Newman has hit the nail firmly on the head. Thatcher's legacy has been visable for all to see over the course of the last 5 nights. She let the genie out of the bottle by stimulating the markets and the ramoant comsumeration and unrelenting Captialism she encourages has proved to have negative impacts that far outweigh any of the supposed benefits to the market / economy. It is odd how the generation of the 1960's are seen to be a dividing line between the two difference halves of the last century when, in reality, they were very much (from a cultural point of view if nothing else) a repetition of the 1920's. In the years to come, the 1980's will be viewed by historians as the true "defining" decade of the 20th Century and unfortunately, the changes for both society and the economy will be seen as being for the worse.

Unfortunately you also appear not to have properly read my earlier posts where I explicitly stated that I could not support the looting or other criminal activity. There is no excuse for it. However, you have to ask yourself what exactly is wrong with society that Mark Duggan felt it necessary to carry a firearm on his person. To use the old slogan, we should be tough on the causes of crime and not just on crime itself. Surely addressing the widening gap between the rich and the poor is very much part of this solution. However, if the youths had taken to the streets demanding political reform and social changes then I would whole heartedly have backed them 100%. Unfortunately, this was never the case in this instance.

[Serial_Apologist]

don't pigeon hole the rioter serial apologist!

Hmm - a new solution, maybe?

[ahinton]

The collossal presence that various branches of Pentecostalism have among the British caribbean population has escaped your notice, ahinton? They are not little: massively financed by their own congregations - and very often from America - they have burgeoned and are still burgeoning exponentially.

I find your post remarkable.

S-A

Fine. Find it as you wish. I did not say that I endorsed the stances of any Church in the present situation either - and I do not endorse the attitudes of those that you cite here. I simply do not make a direct attribution to those Churches for the present actions. What you ascribe to the "various branches of Pentecostalism" is indeed potentially dangerous - I do not for one moment deny that - but I happen to believe that this danger is not so much indelibly connected with as additional to the present issues that we're discussing here - in other words, it can undoubtedly at worst be a further source of inflammation - and a serious one - but is nevertheless not the principal source of the issues under discussion.

[french frank]

I simply do not make a direct attribution to those Churches for the present actions.

As I read it, S-A was simply speculating on the possibility of a connection, not that it was 'the principal source'.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I read it, S-A was simply speculating on the possibility of a connection, not that it was 'the principal source'.

Yes, that is right.

[amateur51]

I hope police will leave no stone unturned to catch this rioter!

https://fbcdn-photos-a.akamaihd.net/..._3162803_s.jpg

[amateur51]

So that makes all the rioting acceptable then , does it? How do you know he was telling the truth? You don't...you just accept it because it feeds your own viewpoint. I'll not bother to try and respond to the rest of your post which seems to find this criminal anarchic behaviour acceptable.

BTS is Emeritus Professor of Common Sense at Nitwood University [SimonSays prop]

[Simon]

I find your post remarkable.

S-A

(to A Hinton)

Good to agree with SA again on something at least! I found his post incredible! Has the long-winded but eminently decent fellow absolutely no perception whatsoever of when people are not being wholly serious? Or is he winding us up so magnificently that we can't twig it?

[Mr Pee]

Has the long-winded but eminently decent fellow absolutely no perception whatsoever of when people are not being wholly serious?

No, I don't think he has.

And I find it unbelievable that some are now trying to blame this criminality on Margaret Thatcher. I wonder how many of the yobs involved have even heard of her? It really is time for the Left to find somebody else to blame for all the ills of society.