Riots

[Anna]

Another thought about the Mark Duggan case that is being attrbiuted as the spark for all of this.

Does the black community never look to itself and wonder why it is that it puts up with such appalling levels of gangsterism and black-on-black murders and gun crime amongst its own. Indeed, a level of crime that it has its own dedicated police unit.

There was a half-hour programme on Sky rolling news featuring two young black men, (I guess late twenties) one of whom was a reformed gangster. In their experiences it was an endlessly repeated cycle on the estate where they lived: teenage mum, no dad, then various temporary dads, physical abuse, intimidation, pressure to join the gangs, pressure to steal and rob for the gangmasters otherwise you'd be on the receiving end of the knife. The reformed one had been in and out of jail. He said he had never felt loved until now, he was just worthless, which is terribly sad. He's now at Uni and works as an outreach and youth worker and is in a settled relationship with a small child. I'll try and find if it'll be repeated. He very much blamed the overwhelmingly macho culture.

[Serial_Apologist]

I blame the Archbishop of Canterbury ...

Hiding miscreants in his beard, is he?

[Simon]

Good to read some interesting posts. Shame that some persist in using the situation as a way to knock anything about the government that they don't agree with, though.

I doubt much of the problem can be laid at the door of the Pentecostal Church, however - an implication that formed part of an evasion of a sensible question from one of our more "challenged" lefties that has brightened the afternoon up a bit for me a bit at least! Me, I blame the Church of Scotland - it's all part of a sinister plot from Edinburgh, you'll see... :)

[Simon]

Mr P.

Yes, I was amused at that post, too!

We may not agree very often with old Caliban, but he does have the knack of giving us a laugh or two every so often. :-)

[StephenO]

I blame the Archbishop of Canterbury ...

It's noticeable that, although there seem to be roughly equal numbers of white and black youths rioting and looting, there are very few Asians involved, except as victims.

At the risk of upsetting just about everyone on here, could that possibly be because of their religious upbringing? Whereas many nominally Christian families have turned their backs on their religion, Muslims and Sikhs have tended to adhere to theirs, meaning that their children are brought up with a clearly defined sense of right and wrong and a belief in a power greater than themselves. I'm not suggesting that you can only be a good person if you have faith but unless youngsters are provided with some sort of moral framework, which many aren't, amorality can become the order of the day.

Good to see young people helping to clear up the damage in Wolverhampton. Perhaps a greater sense of community will be one of the more positive outcomes of all this. Boris isn't the only one with a broom.

[MickyD]

On a lighter note, there has been a lot of clever work done to photos of the looting. OK, you may think some of it in bad taste in such serious times, but there are 3 pages of them here (scroll down), some of them hilarious

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

Clever photo work it may be, Anna, but I'm afraid given the present dreadful circumstances, I fail to see the joke.

[Ian Thumwood]

Interesting to read these comments and there was a heated debate in our office yesterday with regard to the social issues associated with the riots that are echoed in many of the remarks posted here.

I always think it is a shame that these mass demonstrations always deteriorate into acts of criminality which cannot be condoned when I feel many of the people out on the streets probably have quite legitimate reasons to be aggrieved due to the titanic social injustices they face on a day-to-day basis. The comments about a general decline in society since 1945 probably has a degree of truth in it and the lack of family cohesion is likely to cause issues that were mentioned in the earlier post that quoted a reformed gangster. A found that quote to be extremely convincing. Brought up in some pretty unsavoury environments and with a lack of education, it is easy to appreciate why there is likely to be a lack of "moral compass" even though I am sure that many people out on the street certainly have a moral code. albeit one that differs from the majority of people posting on this thread. However, I think the cuts that are being implemented are also largely to blame and do not see the situation getting better unless this taudry Government is swiftly kicked out. Unfortunately, I am not convinced that Milliband is the answer.

It is difficult to side with the platitudes of the politicians who, only 12 months ago, were similarly caught looting public finances with the expenses scandal and they didn't even have the grace to hide their faces. Furthermore, most of our MP's are career politicians groomed in the universities and who have no grasp of real society. They do not truly represent their constituencies and are divorced from thier true, democratic function to represent their constituents as they sre more inclined to follow the direction of their whips. We are under the illusion that we live in a democracy and I applaud anyone who takes to the streets in an endeavour to see Parliament properly represent the people. On top of this, the Mayor of London is a buffoon who has entertained and seduced large swathes of the population (he is loved by many of my colleagues at work) and yet the events of this week have only served to show that he is demonstrably unfit for office. The man is a fool and he should go immediately. No wonder so many Londoner's and UK residents are disengaged with politics.

The disturbing thing for me about the reaction to the riots that has been reflected on this board and on the BBC site is how quickly society is swift to react in a punitive fashion against these protesters. There is already a petition to remove the social benefits of some of these people and websites set up by the middling classes to ensure that the looters are quickly identitifed. This is exacerbated by the powers invested in the magistrates courts which are now working 24 hours to secure convinctions in a fashion that I am sure will severely compromise the natural rules of justice. Why hasn't Liberty spoken out about this and why are they so quiet at the moment!

I really think that some of the responses will do nothing to solve the problem. In manay cases, the knee-jerk reaction of the political Right will only serve to compound the problems. For too long, the so-called "underclass" have been ignored and vilified in the red-top press whereas more effort should go into providing better education, creating jobs and trying to develop a better society where the alternative choice of drifting into a gang culture becomes positively unattractive. This has been a serious failure of our Governments over the last 30 years including Blair's regime whose party prostituted it's principle's to pander to the whims of Middle England. Seeing people calling for capital punishment, the use of plastic bullets (which were counter-productive in Ulster) and the removal of state benefits is enough to make you blood boil. Granted that criminality cannot be excused, I think that the "me first" culture of the Middle Class that was encouraged by Maraget Thatcher and who have kicked away the ladder for any of the poor who want to ascend the rungs of society is as equally to blame for these issues as the people on the streets. Disappointing to see that after 4 days of troubles, the lesson has not been learned and those comfortably well off are hollaring for the return of the Status Quo. Keep the poor and underpriviledged down in the gutter where they belong is their motto! The riots are quickly allowed to mutate into an argument to passively approve of racism too. Shocked by some of the comments I have heard over the last few days.

End of rant - just felt that someone had to address the balance of the argument on this board !!!

[johnb]

Just drove home and saw roughly eight policemen and one of their vans at the Stokes Croft/Ashley Road junction in Bristol. Even though I was in the car I sensed an air of expectation pervading the place.

[Pianorak]

I hope police will leave no stone unturned to catch this rioter!

https://fbcdn-photos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/29301_442976909814_310716489814_5773694_3162803_s.jpg

[handsomefortune]

so funny, thanks pianorak!

[Simon]

End of rant - just felt that someone had to address the balance of the argument on this board !!!

But you didn't, did you, Mr Thumwood.

With the exception of your paragraph 3, which was IMO a model of reason, you merely trotted out the same old left/lib platitudes that we can read every day in the Mirror/SW/The Guardian and such like. You even managed to get in the usual myth about the Thatcher years. <yawn>

Unsurprising that you blame "the cuts", then. Most would agree that some of these should be reconsidered, it's true - cutting the billions sent to prop up a useless and corrupt bureacracy in Brussels would be a good start - but most of us who live in the real world realise that the last lot got us into so much debt, and at the same time into a feeling that there was a bottomless pit of money for all kinds of weird and profitless schemes, that there had to come a point at which someone said "enough". At which point people like you pop up and whinge.

As to "Liberty" - oh please don't encourage that lot to get involved. A more worthless, unhelpful and irrational group of busybodies I have yet to encounter.

[Ian Thumwood]

Simon

Just seen on the news with one of the looters charged today being interviewed and who bitterly regreted his action as he has now secured his first conviction. Tellingly, this black youth was then asked by who took to the streets, he commented that the "police had it coming to them" a dn he wanted retribution given that he had previously been stopped and searched on more than 20 previous occasions without being charged. Judging from your remarks, Simon, I trust that you are white.

I find it very disappointing that the Left have been so silent on the social issues that have prompted the recent disturbances. So far, Ken Livingstone remains the only politician to have joined up the dots although many of the social commentators on Radio 4 similarly appear to have jumped to the same conclusions which elude the crasp of opportunists such as Cameron. Like it or not, a significant proportion of the lower income population have a serious issue with the significant gaps between the rich and the poor. There is a massive amount of resentment in society regarding this. This has been bourne out today by numerous interviews on the radio where people have actually come out in support of the rioters as they believe that this serves as an opportunity to illustrate the widening gap between the "haves" and "have nots. " Curious to to hear many looters opining that they were carrying out the crimes purely for the reason that the owners of commercial properties were rich and they were poor - no matter how misguided this logic is. These problems will presist as long as the symptons remain in place to continue economic apartheid. Irrespective of how you feel about these matters, it is obvious that the redistribution of wealth and significant cultural change to curtail the "get rich culture" remain the most sensible solutions. It is a shame that the majority of those taking to the streets are so uneducated and materialistic as to to direct their attention to stealing a new pair of trainers or a mobile phone as opposed to contributing in a manner which will serve to counter the economic injustices that currntly abound in 21st century Britain.

[Serial_Apologist]

I hope police will leave no stone unturned to catch this rioter!

https://fbcdn-photos-a.akamaihd.net/..._3162803_s.jpg

Should be easy to identify - speaks pidgin English

[eighthobstruction]

Clever photo work it may be, Anna, but I'm afraid given the present dreadful circumstances, I fail to see the joke.

....could be, that you fail to see many jokes....????>

[ahinton]

Good to read some interesting posts. Shame that some persist in using the situation as a way to knock anything about the government that they don't agree with, though.

I doubt much of the problem can be laid at the door of the Pentecostal Church, however - an implication that formed part of an evasion of a sensible question from one of our more "challenged" lefties that has brightened the afternoon up a bit for me a bit at least! Me, I blame the Church of Scotland - it's all part of a sinister plot from Edinburgh, you'll see... :)

I don't blame either Church. What a load of rubbish! What evidence is there that any of the rioting and looting activities of the past few days and future who knows how many years can conceivably be attributed, even in part, to the activities and/or stances of either of those Churches or indeed any other specific Church?

The present goverment, whatever its responsibilities in the current problem may be or may rightly or wrongly be alleged to be, has limited powers to do anything about it any more than any other kind of government would have had; they seek to order the movement of police from one area to another to the unsurprising temporary advantage of the latter whilst knowing full well that, like their threatened deployment at notice(!) of water cannon, such ploys (if one could even dignify them with such a term) are already trounced by the twitterati and the like because technology allows people to move and be moved en masse prontissimo to wherever they might choose to move in order to do whatever they may choose to do whenever they might choose to do it. The problem does indeed apply in villages as well as towns - and why should it not do so if the problem as such pertains? "The police", with or without the best will in the world, are unable to contain this; there are simply not enough of them and for there to be enough of them there would have, permanently, to be far more full-time serving police officers than there would be "citizens" - i.e. customers - who fund them and might accordingly expect to be served and "protected" by them to the standards that they might choose to expect of them.

Frankly, even anarchy stands little chance, but the notion that some little Church or other be blamed for any part of it is surely beyond risible.