Riots

[Guest]

I left it a while as I had hoped that someone else would start the thread. Back in '81, I was travelling on buses through Brixton to see relatives. After that, it was academic study. Much poring over the Scarman report. "Complex political, social and economic factors" had created a "disposition towards violent protest." "Urgent action" was needed to prevent racial disadvantage becoming an "endemic, ineradicable disease threatening the very survival of our society." 2011 is, of course, different. Delete "racial", however black the latest seems.

Why is there so much shock? And why the lack of nuance in condemnation? This always happens a year or two after an economically disastrous Labour Government and in the early days of a harsh Tory one. Yes, one feels sorry for the innocents caught up in it but when systems fail to deliver, people find other ones. To destroy your own community infrastructure is a sign of desperation. It isn't what the financially cosy ever do. And it is an attempt at controlling a difficult situation much as is bulimia.

Anarchy? Look to those in charge. The way they are tearing up the rulebook themselves. The distancing of their impacts. You have a White Hart Lane and an Emirates Stadium in the heart of unemployment and deprivation. They symbolise it all. The gloating and the goading. Same with all the adverts and the aspirations they hype. I feel sorry for the small shopkeepers. As for the bigger enterprises that one finds on every high street, no, if there were no staff there. Looting makes a lot of sense to me. So too the time spent on queuing up beside broken windows to try on shoes. Shopping has become the law more than the law now.

You can't run life like it. You can't tell everyone from the workers in burger joints to staff in the NHS and the police services to work 24/7 - 365 and close down Parliament for three and a half months as if it were an Edwardian university. You can't decide that it is ok for both the PM and the DPM to be on holiday at the same time when there is no excuse for it. And then there are all the high ranking support staff who have colonised these areas because they are "cool". They are shocked. In many ways, good news. A real moment when all the paperwork and talking shop decisions are shown to connect with real life and on their doorsteps too.

[Lateralthinking1]

There is saturation coverage in the London media. People elsewhere may not be aware that there were serious problems last night in Brixton, Enfield, Streatham and Palmers Green and along Oxford Street. The gangs across London have declared a truce. That is, they have decided not to oppose each other but to coordinate. Non-gang members are then piling in. One might say that this indicates these neighbourhoods are being damaged by outsiders but all are Londoners who are currently in London. Like the leading national politicians, the Mayor of London and the acting police chief are both on holiday.

[Anna]

erm, well from what I've read of Saturday night's Tottenham criminality it was (mostly?) done by outsiders to the area. It would seem these mobs are moving (running/cycling/driving) from area to area.

And last night's looting in Enfield, Walthamstow, Brixton was pre-planned as when I was watching Sky News the rolling banner clearly said Brixton would be the next. They had picked this up by following Twitter.

Of course there is deprivation in Tottenham, of course the facts about the shooting must be made clear as soon as possible (did he shoot first?) but don't go blaming it on the cuts and the Coalition, that's just naive. Labour had 13 years prior to this to build bridges. Blame it on the Society that we have become, blame it on the gang culture that Lat has just mentioned, blame it on ourselves for letting gang culture become the norm and assume that's the only way for people to live their lives. Blame it on the parents for not instilling discipline or respect for others and for their property in that trainers, mobiles, television can be stolem with complete lack of conscience. But don't go making political capital out of this appalling situation because that just gives the looters a loophole in that they are justified in their actions because they're suffering under cuts.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

some reflections back Lat

...we are all entitled to a holiday and no one is that indispensable ....

these were not riots in the same way as the Poll Tax or Miners Strike ... this was not organised resistance ... it was organised mayhem and looting [and if it is resistance it is terrorism not demonstration]

there may not be an era in our history when the young gentlemen of lunnun gangs were not ready for a bit of mayhem on the streets ...

the operation, however well or not it is executed, against gun use amongst young people in London and other cities [try Liverpool] is urgently necessary and without condoning the plod's unfortunate habit of shooting the innocent, one can understand their concerns for their own safety in tackling gun toting young men ..

in this case the politicians [Lammy, Abbott] who bemoan the cuts in community interventions and support have a point ... but the dearth of jobs is no longer confined to the poorer areas and the middle is squeezed as tight, they are not running amok and looting .... we are all in the cuts [well except some]

these events are not the social version of an inkblot, we should not project our rage and insecurities onto them ..... what is most disturbing is the contagion, enabled by twittering and the coordination, the disorder could be a major plague on our cities this late summer .... the riots are not 'political' they are far more dangerous than that, they are a contagious social disorder and policing comes first or we will be in a truly Hobbesian nightmare ...

i do not disagree too deeply with you i think on the politics of inequality and governance, but the way to address these issues is to form or join a party and campaign. not to berate those who already do so and scrape enough votes to win power ... i tried this last may and was soundly beaten by a tory .... [where i live that is inevitable]

i share your view concerning the contribution of our 'elites' to this disorder since they have displayed a greed and disregard for the law beyond comprehension [and in this the Met Police are deeply complicit] [and the politicians with their expenses and collusions with the City etc] [and the media with its abuse of trust and power] ...what more definitive permission to loot do you need?

.... given the acute inability of US and EU politicians to resolve the financial crisis [and the crowing of the Merchant bankers in the Cabinet about the cuts] i fear we are in for some seriously hard times ... contagious social disorder could, like the Japanese tsunami, be one of the great defining metaphors of the century

... nature as an implacable force and society as a monster

[Lateralthinking1]

Anna, I agree with some of your post - particularly the issue of parenting. Some of the seven year olds - yes seven - not all - were accompanied in the window smashing last night by their Mums and Dads. However, responsible parents and their offspring are fighting a losing battle with media and establishment irresponsibility. The forces against are just too great. Nowhere is there the believable message that anyone even earns a living these days by being socially conscious or reasonable.

Calum, I agree with much of yours too, but I believe that the squeezed middle will eventually run amok. We have seen it with the students and in a year or two many who are older will conclude it is the only way. I don't want to see a society along the lines of what we have witnessed in Tottenham. I do think though that it has been made perfectly clear that matters won't change in the absence of these occurrences. It is the law of nature essentially. Cause and effect. Drug-dealing, gun-toting youths are not Robin Hoods but arguably only because we just can't accept that they are emotionally. Closer analysis suggests that they are probably not that different and, yes, the police don't know what to do about it.

I do respect you for standing in the election, I really do, but you were standing against a party political system that has a stranglehold and indeed global economics. Personally, I would take this country back to the sixties but if anyone were to contemplate the steps it would take, they would be regarded as dangerously anarchic. That is how far adrift this country has become from itself. It is in essence the reverse of what it actually is and if anyone feels that this doesn't make a great deal of sense, you are quite right. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

[eighthobstruction]

Could be a use for the Olympic Park at Stratford after the games.....possibly an excellent place for a colossal [heritage] bundle....

[scottycelt]

The most frightening thing for me (of course for the poor innocent residents affected in Tottenham and elsewhere it might now be a somewhat outdated concern) was the Metropolitan Police describing the London situation as 'challenging'. Anyone who has had even short-term experience of British management-speak knows exactly what that means ..

The family of Mark Duggan has made its position on the violence, thuggery and looting perfectly clear. This has nothing to do with them or 'social deprivation'. To suggest as much is an insult to the grieving family and the huge majority of underprivileged folk who live their lives in a civilised manner and even manage to help others.

It is most obviously mindless, thuggish and potentially murderous behaviour by young criminal gangs and also wretched and totally amoral opportunists taking part in the accompanying looting.

If the police virtually admit they cannot cope it is a very serious situation indeed, as this could easily spread to other cities ... maybe the Army might have to be deployed in these areas if things continue to get out of hand?

What a dreadful but not impossible outcome that would be ...

[eighthobstruction]

With the speed the MOD usually takes to deliver and modernise weapons, helicopters etc for different theatres of war....how long would it take to get ready for Peckham....??....

[Serial_Apologist]

With the speed the MOD usually takes to deliver and modernise weapons, helicopters etc for different theatres of war....how long would it take to get ready for Peckham....??....

Will I be hauled in if I sport my "I Love Peckham" T-shirt?

[Lateralthinking1]

Mercia, well, I think that they probably are like Robin Hood but we find that difficult to accept as it is mayhem. If they walk out of a shop with 500 pairs of trainers and sell them cheaply to their mates, it is redistribution even if we don't like the methods.

Scottycelt, I sort of accept that they are brainless. I don't condone it in any way because life is a lot lovelier for most of us without it, even when times are tough. That of course is a self-interest thing. It still seems to me that the logic is on their side.

When I said I'd go back to the sixties, I should clarify that I would keep one or two things including the 1976 Race Relations Act.

[Anna]

Mercia, well, I think that they probably are like Robin Hood but we find that difficult to accept as it is mayhem. If they walk out of a shop with 500 pairs of trainers and sell them cheaply to their mates, it is redistribution even if we don't like the methods.

Lat, Robin Hood doesn't come into it. They're thieves, stealing to make a gain and those mates they sell the trainers to are also criminals for receiving stolen goods! Mind you, your statement is the first thing that has made me smile about the situation!

As for your statement that the gangs have called a truce, at Kings College Hospital there was a gangfight between two rival gangs whose members had been taken there with stab wounds.

[Ariosto]

Lat, Robin Hood doesn't come into it. They're thieves, stealing to make a gain and those mates they sell the trainers to are also criminals for receiving stolen goods! Mind you, your statement is the first thing that has made me smile about the situation!

Anna, you neeed to be really on the ground here to be able to comment on the situation, where the Met Police have caused a war zone by their incompetence.

It has occured to me that maybe the police let the situation get out of hand so that they could claim that the cuts they are facing should be reversed and even more people recruited. It might just be cynical me though

P.S.

I won't be posting any replies as I'm officially dead.

[Serial_Apologist]

The Deputy head at the Met (I think) is just reported saying shops selling knives and machetes were being looted for use against police officers.

WHY ARE SUCH SHOPS STILL THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE???

[Lateralthinking1]

Anna, you may laugh, but I'm on the outskirts of Greater London. It could get like this even here tonight:



On Kings, quite true, but I knew someone who was a trainee nurse there. She said it often got that rough among medics in the dorms.

[eighthobstruction]

machetes

Obviously Twitter was not enough....they had to use the Grapevine....

Completely agree re these martial macho shops....