Riots

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  • Lateralthinking1

    #46
    Hi Anna - Reeves Furniture Store, which has been a family owned business in Croydon for a hundred years, has been burnt to the ground. I went out earlier and could actually see patterns in the sky caused by the blaze up here in the hills six miles away.

    The man and his father - fourth and fifth generations - are very upset and I do feel deeply sorry for them. Locals are also sad because it has been a landmark. It should though be noted that all of the famous shop landmarks that have gone in the past - Kennedys Sausages, Grants of Croydon, Beanos Records - have done so because of economic pressures. Those blazes have just been met with a shrug of the shoulders on the part of politicians and, in fact, with some justification - "that is the way of the markets", "you can't be sentimental about history", "it is a harsh, competitive world". I see that as arson too.

    It is good of you to acknowledge my perspective. I don't approve of this mayhem in its own right (or wrong). I find it very dismal and depressing (but not shocking) and yet it had to happen. Even my father, himself now 80, ex local government, Express reader, and as about as mild mannered and conventional as it gets, has been of the view since last autumn that this has been inevitable. Traditionally of the centre-right, "ish", albeit working class by background, my parents should be precisely in the Cameron-Clegg clan but they can't bear them any more than I can with my radicalism and spoilt their ballot papers last May.

    OK, they are just a couple of pensioners but that kind of thing represents the great divide now even among the settled. Governments of the last 15 years have got it all entirely wrong and don't even speak to middle England. What I approve of is the fact that almost everything that is being done needs to be changed and this might be a start. There is no other option. I would prefer it to happen without societal breakdown but it has been made patently clear for decades that it isn't going to happen with rational democratic debate. Hence, this kind of thing happens and will get much worse until the message is heeded.

    The actions are not "just criminality". They are an exact reflection of the criminal disregard and incompetence of those who govern this country. Such people are not seen as having any convincing authority because, frankly, they just don't have any. In fact, let's go back to that headline on the weekend in the Telegraph about the planning proposals. Bob Neill, MP for Bromley, declares "war" on the National Trust. If Governments are "declaring war" on the National Trust, those on sink estates must feel in a confused way that they are being air bombed nightly. You can't rationally have elected representatives declaring civil war - for what else is it? - and then expect there to be no consequences. Their stances are utterly insane.
    Last edited by Guest; 09-08-11, 01:09.

    Comment

    • Lateralthinking1

      #47
      That's fine. It will give you more time to take lessons in civility. You clearly need them badly.
      Last edited by Guest; 09-08-11, 04:29.

      Comment

      • scottycelt

        #48
        As has been pretty obvious from the start of all this unprecedented anarchy on our streets, extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures. Water-cannon is the first measure that might be adopted and, of course, is the police tactic used in most other countries, but apparently our mainland police don't have any at their disposal ... marvellous, eh?. Water-cannon has the distinct advantage of both dispersing the mob but is also suitably equipped to put out small fires at the same time, which is exactly why it's widely used in such circumstances elsewhere.

        In the event that the police continue to fail in combating this thuggery with the resources available (I feel so sorry for our poorly-equipped riot officers, some who appear to be tiny-sized females) then the army will have to be called in and rubber-bullets used on the mobs if necessary.

        If anyone here continues to express any doubt what pure 'evil' actually means, they surely must be in complete and total denial concerning the bleedin' blindingly-obvious dark side of human nature currently casting a dark shadow over our streets.

        Comment

        • hackneyvi

          #49
          Visible signs of riots in Dalston at 9 last night.

          Roads empty of traffic, all Kingsland Road's businesses shut, the Vortex gig cancelled, sirens and helicopter noise, people walking because the buses were terminating outside Hackney, on a dog's leg side street avoiding Dalston Junction, the boxes of 3 different mobile phones lying next to each other in the road, phones gone but chargers left in the box.

          I'm off work today and will go up to Mare Street to see what's happened there.

          Comment

          • Lateralthinking1

            #50
            As I said before, this is a frankenstein's monster that has been created. You've effectively got Cameron and May as the "parents" and the rioters of whatever age are their "kids". The elitist parents are living the life of riley. They have social connections which are corrupt, hardly the most wonderful example to set. Then they are cutting back on the "kids" to maintain their lavish lifestyles. Plus they are waving all the exotic things they have in front of the "kids" and saying "one day you could have these too".

            Of course, the "kids" know it is a load of baloney. At the point when the goading becomes too much, they go berserk. On top of that, the parents are "liberal". Let the "kids" have "freedoms". That is, the freedom to do whatever they like. Then when they have a party that is literally a riot, the "parents" get "rather cross". Dysfunctional political "parents". Dysfunctional citizen "kids". On this most terrible of days, the part of me that is delighted by the events, and I admit that it is fast diminishing, would see it triggering the introduction of a greater authoritarianism all round. Regrettably, it is now the only answer.

            First, these political "parents" seriously need to address themselves. The first thing they should do is get more in touch with the average voter who doesn't go out rioting and stop declaring war on him and her. Next, sadly, the "kids" need to be dealt with. The adult ones are quite incapable of normal parenting. Clearly the problem is huge. I'd set aside an island, make it into a prison, and ship anyone who is prosecuted off to there for hard manual labour. Their children - the ones who are really kids - need safe houses for their own protection, education, hard work, and no electronic devices.

            I want an outright ban on anything in the games market that involves smashing up or shooting down communities. I want any hip-hop output that promotes sexism, racism and violence banned. I want membership of a gang to be made illegal. The quid pro quo is that we bear down equally forcefully on the financial excesses of those at the top. No one - and that means no one - permitted to earn more than £100,000 net. As for tonight, yes, the use of curfews and water cannon, including smart water that shows dna, the switching off of social networking sites for as long as is necessary, and whatever else it takes.

            Let's be honest. This is essentially a black problem - not exclusively - caused mainly - not exclusively - by well-off whites. Liberalism and multiculturalism have just died. The damage that the top and the bottom of our society have caused is now immense. Immigration needs to be stopped. We can't afford it. And as for the people of ethnic backgrounds in this country, they need to be educated back to their roots, preferably by their law-abiding elders - lessons in what it means positively to be British of West Indian origin - and firmly away from American gangster culture.

            I predict if these steps are not taken, the BNP vote at the next election will be absolutely massive, it will be sickening, and there will be no going back from that hell which will be beyond anyone's control. The three main parties will be entirely to blame for it.
            Last edited by Guest; 09-08-11, 08:45.

            Comment

            • Anna

              #51
              I was going to reply to Lat's last but one message but my internet connection became increasingly erratic and then finally died (presumably the servers got overloaded?) I carried on watching the rolling news on BBC until 2am then went to bed, quite frankly unable to watch any more. I don't have time to reply now and have to be offline for a couple of hours and consequently I haven't been able to do more than skim through your latest one Lat, plus I don't want to reply on purely a kneejerk reaction. Glad that hackneyvi has emerged this morning unscathed and look forward to a report later on from him regarding the situation/mood where he is.

              Comment

              • An_Inspector_Calls

                #52
                TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
                Hey you!

                RIFF
                Who me, Officer Krupke?

                TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
                Yeah you, gimme one good reason for not draggin' ya down the station house, ya punk!

                RIFF
                Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke
                You gotta understand
                It's just our bringin' upke
                That gets us out of hand
                Our mothers all are junkies
                Our fathers all are drunks
                Golly Moses, naturally we're punks

                JETS
                Gee, Officer Krupke
                We're very upset
                We never had the love
                That every child oughta get
                We ain't no delinquents
                We're misunderstood
                Deep down inside us there is good

                RIFF
                There is good!

                JETS
                There is good, there is good
                There is untapped good
                Like inside, the worst of us is good

                TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
                That's a touching good story

                RIFF
                Lemme tell it to the world!

                TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
                Just tell it to the judge

                RIFF
                Dear kindly Judge, your Honor
                My parents treat me rough
                With all their marijuana
                They won't give me a puff
                They didn't wanna have me
                But somehow I was had
                Leapin' lizards, that's why I'm so bad

                SNOWBOY IMITATING JUDGE
                Right! Officer Krupke
                You're really a square
                This boy don't need a judge
                He needs an analyst's care
                It's just his neurosis
                That oughta be curbed
                He's psychologically disturbed

                RIFF
                I'm disturbed

                JETS
                We're disturbed, we're disturbed
                We're the most disturbed
                Like we're psychologically disturbed

                SNOWBOY IMITATING JUDGE
                Hear ye, hear ye. In the opinion of this court, this child is depraved on account he ain't had a normal home.

                RIFF
                Hey, I'm depraved on account I'm deprived!

                SNOWBOY IMITATING JUDGE
                So take him to a headshrinker. You!

                ACTION
                Who me?

                RIFF
                My daddy beats my mommy
                My mommy clobbers me
                My grandpa is a commie
                My grandma pushes tea
                My sisters wears a moustache
                My brother wears a dress
                Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess

                ACTION IMITATING HEADSHRINKER
                Yes, Officer Krupke
                He shouldn't be here
                This boy don't need a couch
                He needs a usefully career
                Society's played him a terrible trick
                And sociologically he's sick

                RIFF
                I am sick!

                JETS
                We are sick, we are sick
                We are sick sick sick
                Like we're sociologically sick

                ACTION IMITATING HEADSHRINKER
                In my opinion, this child does not need to have his head shrunk at all. Juvenile delinquency is purely a social disease.

                RIFF
                Hey, I got a social disease!

                ACTION IMITATING HEADSHRINKER
                So take him to a social worker

                RIFF
                Dear kindly social worker
                They tell me get a job
                Like be a soda jerker
                Which means I'd be a slob
                It's not I'm antisocial
                I'm only anti-work
                Glory Osky, that's why I'm a jerk

                A-RAB
                Eek, Officer Krupke
                You've done it again
                This boy don't need a job
                He needs a year in the pen
                It ain't just a question of misunderstood
                Deep down inside he's no good

                RIFF
                I'm no good

                JETS
                We're no good, we're no good
                We're no earthly good
                Like the best of us is no damn good

                The trouble is he's lazy
                The trouble is he drinks
                The trouble is he's crazy
                The trouble is he stinks
                The trouble is he's growing
                The trouble is he's grown
                Krupke, we've got troubles of our own

                Officer Krupke
                We're down on our knees

                RIFF
                'Cause no one wants a fella
                With a social disease

                JETS
                Dear Officer Krupke
                What are we to do?
                Gee, Officer Krupke
                Krup you!

                Comment

                • hackneyvi

                  #53
                  From Chapter 67 of Dickens' Barnaby Rudge (1841) describing the 1780 Gordon Riots in London, the night after the destruction by the mob of Newgate Gaol.

                  ... as though the setting in of night had been their preconcerted signal, the rioters having previously in small parties, prevented the lighting of the street lamps, rose like a great sea; and that in so many places at once, and with such inconceivable fury, that those who had the direction of the troops knew not, at first, where to turn or what to do. One after another, new fires blzaed up in every quarter of the town, as though it were the intention of the insurgents to wrap the city in a circle of flames, which, contracting by degress, should burn the whole to ashes; and none but rioters and soldiers being out of doors, it seemed to the latter as if all London were arrayed against them, and they stood alone against the town.
                  Tough job to be a cop or shopkeeper last night.

                  The night seemed quiet compared to the evening. I'm off to see what I shall see.

                  Comment

                  • johnb
                    Full Member
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 2903

                    #54
                    Originally posted by BetweenTheStaves
                    Thank God for the Ignore button. I can now read this thread without the inane rantings of Lateralthinking.

                    Moderator's comment: There are times when deleting messages merely reduces members' ability to weigh up their fellow-posters. Therefore I leave this message in place. It deserves no further response.

                    ff
                    I turned to this thread for the first time this morning, vaguely hoping to read something that would help me, just a little, understand what is happening.

                    Having read the last page of the thread - I have some sympathy with BetweenTheStaves' remark.

                    Comment

                    • amateur51

                      #55
                      Originally posted by johnb View Post
                      I turned to this thread for the first time this morning, vaguely hoping to read something that would help me, just a little, understand what is happening.

                      Having read the last page of the thread - I have some sympathy with BetweenTheStaves' remark.
                      Which one, johnb?

                      #51?

                      or #55?

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 37907

                        #56
                        Originally posted by johnb View Post
                        Having read the last page of the thread - I think BetweenTheStaves has a very good point.
                        And that is???

                        Having watched the TV coverage from the "comparative" safety of leafy upper Dulwich (ahem), while no being in any way a Torygraph supporter, a certain Matt cartoon springs to the curdled brain. Two rioters emerge from a commercial premises they have just torched. One turns to the other and says, "We'd better stop for now, or at this rate there won't be much fun left for next week".

                        Thinking back to Lateral's last posting, he may well have a point, ironically. If we are all now to be faced with an authoritarian clamp-down, then maybe it will give the young "firebrands" cause to think about who their real targets should be. Back in the 1970s there was a lumpen proletarian rag-bag army of the Left - recruited by the Socialist Workers' Party and Militant Tendency and often refugees from the National Front. They learned a few of the most basic rudiments of class struggle and oversimplified Marxism, and had their plentiful spare time occupied with selling Socialist Worker and Militant on the estates and in shopping precincts. Kept them out of trouble. It was in some ways a shame that few recruits came from ethnic minority groups - the white kids among the rioters of the early 1980s were, as today, more from the "anarchist" end of the dispirited and testosterone-fuelled.

                        S-A

                        Comment

                        • Mr Pee
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 3285

                          #57
                          Theresa May has ruled out the use of water cannon, saying that in Britain we "police by consent". Consent with whom, exactly? The thieves and vandals running riot on our streets?? If it's OK to use such methods in other European countries, and indeed recently in Northern Ireland, then why not here? I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of decent, law-abiding citizens would readily "consent" to their use, and indeed the use of CS Gas, if it helped to clean the streets of this filth.
                          Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

                          Mark Twain.

                          Comment

                          • Stillhomewardbound
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 1109

                            #58
                            Inspector Calls ... nice use of the Officer Krupke song from WSS.

                            Yes, isn't it amazing how little changes.

                            Some sub-communities get up and get on, while others choose to stick where they are and blame society for their complete indolence. All the ills in their lives are someone else's fault. They are never to blame. So, they subsist, often quite comfortably, either dealing drugs, or assisting in such activities.

                            Violience and intimidation are also tools of their behaviour, call it their 'coping mechanism' if you will.

                            What they don't have, they can grab, and than hollar like babies when caught in the act and cite discrimination this, intimidation that.

                            As, for me ... well, I'm very much the lefty liberal. Grew up with the Guardian and all that and can't stand the Tories, even worse the Blair ... but I'm not really not stupid and can see naked opportunitsm for everything that it is.

                            It really is time to say to these people: "Either get on or get out. You had all the education and assistance and support that your neighbours had, so how come your still at the bottom of the heap. Stuff your excuses. This lefty has heard them all and seen the thousands of corrective measures that have been taken to make you a better world; and still society's keeping you down, eh? Rollocks to that."


                            SHB

                            Comment

                            • Chris Newman
                              Late Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 2100

                              #59
                              I would remind BetweenThe Staves that the holding of a sincere belief in equality and human rights is not the perogative of people with rose-tinted pinko-liberal sensitivities. One of the most famous and important sentences written in history runs:
                              We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
                              . I believe in and support the principles advanced in the second sentence of the American Declaration of Independence.

                              As far as I am concerned what I have seen on the news is a mix of all races and creeds indulging themselves in an orgy of selfishness and copy-cat criminality. I think that the Government needs to take a firmer hand and put the military on protection duty so that the police can work at sorting out the crimes. I am sure that is not the thinking of a pinko. To paint an ultimate belief in Liberalism with abuse is a dangerous step towards totalitarianism.

                              Comment

                              • Serial_Apologist
                                Full Member
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 37907

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Stillhomewardbound View Post
                                It really is time to say to these people: "Either get on or get out. You had all the education and assistance and support that your neighbours had, so how come your still at the bottom of the heap." SHB
                                Well because - as you should well know if your lay claim to your left-wing liberal credentials - there is a heap to be at the bottom of in the first place. Capitalism and those who support it will-nilly or benefit the most by it is not interested in meeting society's basic needs; it is innately subject to periodic downs caused by the inability of purchasing power across its global aegis to soak up the goods it produces when it overproduces, and wshen that happens it politically needs that army of the unemployed surplus to requirements right now thank you very much to discipline the employed into accepting rationalisation and wage-cutting. The parts are all at odds with each other under capitalism - it's problems are endemic to it and won't be overcome until those who disproportionately profit by it and lord it over everyone else arre brought to book and told: look, you think you know best, with your entrerpreneurial skills and ability to spot niches in consumers' needs. Ok then, we'll take you on: we'll elect you, put you on a wage commensurate with the time it took you to acquire these alleged skills, give you say six months to come up with implementing ideas and suggestions for socially useful environmentally sustainable products we and the needy communities worldwide have come up with, and if you don't size up, you'll be out.

                                That would be the start of a society nobody would want or need to be against.

                                Comment

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