Riots

[amateur51]

I'm an unusual kinda fella !!....

thank goodness for that

[eighthobstruction]

It's the lack of 'goodness' that makes me unusual....

Here's a newly minted profile by R4 on our good lady Home Sec Theresa May....http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...e_Theresa_May/

[Lateralthinking1]

Eighth - I think yours is a very good post. Here is a very simplistic run through. There was some merging of black and white culture in the 60s and 70s. Many working class whites took to ska and reggae and those drew heavily on the West Indian roots of the new immigrant population. The US frankly did not get a look in there and the same was even more true of the Midlands based two-tone revivalist movement at the turn of the 80s. Yes, that was very anti Thatcher and it was a close relation to punk. By 1982, it had gone. In the next decade, I would struggle to think of five reggae songs that hit the singles charts as the record companies turned music increasingly into product. There had been an even bigger merging of black and white during the 60s and the 70s with soul. Here the US did come in to it. Motown became so successful that many black people would come to see it as too white in its appeal. Great as it was, it owed less to roots than to the concept of factory. The 60s Northern Soul scene was grittier and club based, with an accent on obscure records. It could be seen as a forerunner both to two-tone in its English localism and to disco, the big black phenomenon of the late 70s, in its emphasis on American records being played rather than British live performance.

While disco was in so many ways a US industrialization of dancing to bits of plastic - the film Saturday Night Fever was the ultimate example of this and as black as the Bee Gees - its roots were in the gay clubs which by definition were often at odds with the system behaviourally. Drugs were rife but then so had they been in predominantly white rock scenes for a decade and a half. And so too around early 70s soul when some of the main artists, including Tamla ones, became overtly political, singing about urban deprivation. In fact, I would see a direct link between that politicised soul and rap/hip hop which emerged in 1979-1980. Perhaps it was Mrs Thatcher and her counterpart Ronald Reagan but an awful lot disappeared between 1982 and 1989. Just as reggae was less frequently in the charts, and went back to being "a marginal black thing", black soul became blander to the point of not being soul at all. Disco disappeared, another genre that had been whitened out in the mainstream. Punk, which had emerged in 1976-1977, was softened into the university students' indie and even rap was happily just trotting along, often putting out positive, jaunty, even pseudo-religious messages. The turning of all music into acceptable product seemed virtually complete.

While punk and disco had often seemed poles apart, they had both lived on the wild side in their early days, somewhat shadowy in their anti-establishment ways, whatever any hedonism. And while punk had seemed to many revolutionary there was always a significant part of it that was pure vaudeville. It shared with disco an emphasis more on entertainment than politics. The late 80s brought the hedonistic dance genres, the e drug and chasing round the M25 to fields on the basis of late phone calls. Yes, you can see the links with the rioting by twitter and blackberry in the communication styles. It was also back to the shadowy excitement of punk and disco, that playing chicken with the police perhaps. Crucially, this was the era when the white lad indie guitar music so favoured by the university students picked up on dance rhythms and there was an immediate crossover there. It could have been the first time when pop counter-culture was taken to readily not by 14 year old working class youths but the 20-something offspring of company directors. And yes, you hear Cameron being described as one of the Jam generation - the group who appealed to white working class suburban males in 1978 - but it is nonsense. Born in the late sixties, he or at least his wife were down with Tricky, an edgy black dance guy in Bristol in the early 90s. Indeed, Sam is said to have had a tattoo of him on her leg.

Tricky is perhaps the epitome of the crossover in the 90s between the new dance and US rap/hip hop. He performed with Bristol's mixed race, slightly malevolent sounding, slow dance group Massive Attack and incorporated elements of rap. That whole scene mixed live performance with DJs playing records. A kind of now you see them, now you don't. And it was druggy and hedonistic even though the example I quote was on the morose side. Since then, rap/hip hop has settled into an industrialized churn. Years and years of the stuff poured out by the US multinationals glamourizing guns, treating women like prostitutes, the all-importance of money and a fantasy of living in the shadows of deprivation on the violent edge. There was a forerunner of this too. Back in the early 1970s when soul had become more political, Marvin Gaye was asking pertinent questions about inequality - "What's Going On?" But there was also the Charlie Big Potatoes side of it. It was called blaxploitation and it was most typified by the film "Shaft". This is what tends to appeal more to the current black and white working classes than either politics or hedonism.

I suspect Eighth you are right. While ex 14 year old working class youths are likely to look back at their culture fondly but laugh openly about it, the ex 20-something middle classes probably now feel a little embarrassed. Of course, many of them are in the public eye and influential so they have perhaps the most to lose. They are also likely to feel that the industrialization of gangsta rap is just a bit of fun, good for profits and, hey, a chance for the kids to have some freedom and self-expression. They are right about the money bit. On the rest, they are so wrong they might as well be speaking to us from trees in the middle of nowhere.

[Serial_Apologist]

#510

That is a remarkable, almost encyclopaedic resume of your memory banks on an important developing cultural curve, Lat! What it misses out is the experiomental side of some post-punk, and, slightly more importantly, 1980s bands such as Jazz Jamaica which young black Britons (London-born mostly to begin with) used as part of their hommage to forerunners such as the Skatalites - initially including some of the original personnel - in building a new British-based post-bop jazz scene.

But, however interesting - that is another topic, and not really germane to the points you made so well.

One of the most interesting points made in a series presented by Pauline Black on Radio 1, (when intellectually it was sometimes ahead opf where Radio 3 is today), was that blacks artists were seen as essentially dance fodder image-wise by the recording industry in the 1980s, in America but especially here, where they were just not taken seriously as MUSICIANS. This probably encouraged some of the younger generation, eg Courtney Pine, to switch creative paths to jazz, launching the Jazz Warriors as an all-black educative/rehearsing/perfolrming/future generations-creating collective. Before that, fine black UK jazz musicians - respected primarily as MUSICIANS by the white -dominated UK jazz community ather than understood as they did themselves - either played reggae, soul or proper jazz in... wine bars There was considerable animosity between followers of reggae and of disco/soul.jazz-funk until the trends merged under the banner of hip hop and soul later merged intol this to create Garage and what TODAY classifies as, ahem, R&B.

[Lateralthinking1]

s_a - Many thanks. It is one of my main areas. I completely agree with all that you have said. I left out masses as you can see. One could do Masekela - Kuti - Osibisa etc through to Paul Simon's Graceland and the Bhundu Boys, ie Africa or Concert for Bangladesh through to Band Aid, ie charity etc but it was an attempt to focus on the main parts of teen culture where there could be said to have been racial crossover and some relevance to current thinking and behaviour. More room might have enabled a discussion on the Notting Hill Carnival and Ibiza or the gulf between, say, lovers rock and ragga. Additionally, there were the phenomena of the World Cup in 90 and Euro 96 here in England - e among increasingly multicultural football crowds in smart sportswear. And then as you say the complete reinvention of old terms like garage and r n b with all of the lurid presentation that has often accompanied them. So many sub-genres in those too. So little obvious reason or clarity.

My comments on punk sound dismissive. I'm not. Many of us will recall just how hot under the collar the authorities became, even over a boat being sailed past Parliament. It also had the politics of do-it-yourself which indie took forward often with huge innovation - I was one of the white university lads who followed it - although it had alarming tendencies to dip. But the longer time moves on, punk looks mostly like good art and theatre, more important historically than politically. Malcolm McLaren expected it. Incidentally, I suspect that any animosity between jazz and reggae may have been deep rooted. There would have been a time when reggae aligned with punk and jazz perhaps with blues and traditional rock. Jazz people might have been associated with Gong or others who Lydon would dismiss as hippies. In any case, ska originally was much closer to the mod thing.

While the mainstream chart is dismal - the same old buckets of nuggets being chucked out by people with mega-dollars who rarely care about all of the rats running around the kitchen - the last decade has seen a big improvement musically in broader terms after the nadir that was the late 90s. Jazz and folk have both had a splendid renaissance. Notwithstanding acid jazz, it may be that jazz has more mainstream appeal now than at any time since the days of jazz funk and the perceived cool jazz of Working Week. It's also purer. Similarly, while celtic folk became all the rage in the 1980s, English folk is surely more accessible than at any time since the early 1970s. I can't remember who has been nominated for prizes but when the list probably includes Pine and Marsalis, Herbie Hancock, the Portico Quartet, Nitin Sawhney, Norma Waterson and the Unthanks, things really can't be too bad. - Lat.

[Stillhomewardbound]

Sad, but true, the Metropolitan Police remains perhaps Britain's most insular institution, so imagine then an outsider party being grafted on as the new head of the Met. Lunacy. Even in the best of times, never mind the current demoralised era, London police would very unwelcoming of outside assistance.

Haven't we also had enough of outside, consulting agencies, who put down for five minutes, making a few suggestions the repercussions of which they'll not be around to be accountable for, and having cost the taxpayer a small fortune in the process.

I'm frankly appalled that Cameron & May, while they will have their misgivings behind the scenes are not standing shoulder to shoulder with the acting commissioner. Hey you guys, you're not in opposition now. This is a no brainer. Indicating you're not overly impressed by the riot handling, even if you're right on that, its not the time!!

[old khayyam]

In response to a couple of well-said posts upthread, i'd like to add a pennisworth.

Firstly, Reggae was huge movement in the 80s, and getting bigger. The singles, however, came primarily from UB40 or Aswad (plus a novelty single from Smiley Culture, whose recent death at the hands of a police raid this year precursed the current riots)

The claim that Rap just "trotted along" in the 80s is untrue. It was just coming into its own, gaining strength all the time. People like RunDMC and LL Cool J were the state of the art, but Public Enemy were the vanguard - hardcore political lyrics that so attacked white supremacy that the group themselves were accused of racism. Race aside, their lyrics were opening lots of embarrasing holes in all aspects of authoritarian culture (such as '911 Is A Joke' - about how long it takes to get an ambulance, fire-engine, or even the police in the poorer parts of town), and also providing positive guidance at the same time.

With other groups ,such as NWA, joining them in the fight, political rap was becoming a movement. So you can imagine the American govt wanting to see this change. So, come the 90s, Gansta rap was born. PublicEnemy always flaunted weapons, but they were saying 'defend yourself'. It was for the cause. Public Enemy were about fighting for your rights against the uniformed aggressor. Ganster rap was/is for your damn self! Fighting for girls, fighting for gold, fighting just to show youre tough. All political motives or ideals had been removed.



(There you go - bit more to Old Khayyam than meets the eye )

[Stillhomewardbound]

As with most of us, I suspose, I don't have a great knowledge of the whys and wherefores of rioting folk, however, I'm wondering why arson was so prevalent. I was in Woolwich at the weekend where a very busy pub had been 'torched', and elsewhere a shop which had led to the demolition of the building.

Arson, as opposed to mere opportunistic looting, requires a bit more premeditation - and an accelerant.

So, were fires started (a) with malice aforethought, (b) as a diversions and/or (c) at specifically targeted businesses?

[amateur51]

As with most of us, I suspose, I don't have a great knowledge of the whys and wherefores of rioting folk, however, I'm wondering why arson was so prevalent. I was in Woolwich at the weekend where a very busy pub had been 'torched', and elsewhere a shop which had led to the demolition of the building.

Arson, as opposed to mere opportunistic looting, requires a bit more premeditation - and an accelerant.

So, were fires started (a) with malice aforethought, (b) as a diversions and/or (c) at specifically targeted businesses?

Interesting article about arson & arsonists' motives:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/10/australia-bushfires-arson-psychology

I think we have to understand that on the periphery of the rioting there are likely to be people who sieze the opportunity to work out some very particular motives that may never be fathomed. A psychiatrist friend has been talking a lot recently about the riots, in general, and arson in particular as manifestations of rage, furious pent-up anger.

That's not an attempt to excuse it, rather an attempt to understand it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Apparent support for "independence" for the police is understandable, given the current climate & situation; but has anyone considered the encapsulated dangers of a police state should "independence" drift too far? Another discussion maybe for another time, but even so...

[Serial_Apologist]

Interesting article about arson & arsonists' motives:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/10/australia-bushfires-arson-psychology

I think we have to understand that on the periphery of the rioting there are likely to be people who sieze the opportunity to work out some very particular motives that may never be fathomed. A psychiatrist friend has been talking a lot recently about the riots, in general, and arson in particular as manifestations of rage, furious pent-up anger.

That's not an attempt to excuse it, rather an attempt to understand it.

"Arson psychology remains a very inexact science"... and indeed, that Grauniad article only cites 17% of possible causative motivations. Preplanning must have played a part... or perhaps it only takes a tiny few to start conflagration; how many today keep white spirit under their kitchen sinks?

[Stillhomewardbound]

As previously stated, I consider myself quite the lefty, but I just can't buy this business of 'a generation that has been left behind', not when I see this video. These people are simply on the thieve, and my goodnesss, look at them ... they are not short for clothes and they certainly have very well fed faces; they're also for intent on evading detection.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14525375

[Mandryka]

I was in sunny Firenze when all this was going down. Must sheepishly admit, my first thought on seeing the news was to groan inwardly at all the fodder this was going to bestow on the know-nothing chattering classes.

[amateur51]

Two personal views from Gary Yonge and David Lammy, MP for Tottenham.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/14/young-british-rioters-political-actions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/14/david-lammy-tottenham-mark-duggan

[Lateralthinking1]

I recommend going to a farm and picking plums. That is what I did this morning.

On reggae, I note the comments on UB40 post 1982-1983 and Aswad and will let others be the judge. I did say that it became less mainstream for a decade. These were the very rare, very commercial, and rather light exceptions. From memory, there was a lot of stuff in a reggae style later in the chart, ie the early to mid 1990s. I would call most of it inoffensive pop.

Since then, the themes in reggae sub-genres have had considerable crossover with rap/hip hop - the lyrics more violent, sexist and homophobic. Those aspects were not absent in reggae before but the current stuff is miles removed from reggae's roots, any Britishness and particularly any spirituality. It is an Americanised version of it in my view. Similar things are occurring in Latin music and in fact across all genres as they have increasingly become more global although not everything is chronic.

Smiley Culture was different. He was indeed effectively killed recently and just four miles from here in leafy conservatism - an altercation between the police and a 40-something in his home over drugs. My point there was about the language. He had briefly combined Jamaican patois with South London lingo which at least was founded in British reality. Michael Rosen when the Childrens Poet Laureate chose his song "Police Officer" as one of his eight Desert Island Discs because he recognised its intelligence.

On rap/hip hop, I thought someone would pick me up on Public Enemy and NWA. Yes, the 80s and very early 90s were not all LL Cool J, De La Soul and PM Dawn. The artists you mention were very hardcore, critically acclaimed for being newish, having something of a political agenda - violent, and cutting edge. I don't feel though that their reach was significant here although in the States they clearly registered way beyond the readers of the NME and the Guardian. It probably does them a disservice to lump them in with the decade and a half of mindless "swagger and aggro" fodder in the chart aimed at teenagers.

One can't help but feel that an American police chief might not understand the various historical strands in British popular
culture and he could therefore be somewhat at a disadvantage.

I think the points about arson are very well made.