Riots

[Lateralthinking1]

Very nice clip GT. It made me laugh.

Amateur's "youth club closure" video - I find the people on it interesting. While none of them is a contender for Brain of Britain, I am struck by how eloquent and rational they all are. They have an unexpected maturity. I also note something else. It is about the eyes. There is in each one almost an emotional confusion, a kind of very distant and rather sad bemusement, that is at odds with the certainties of their words. It is as if they find it all hard to fully accept and I think that this could be because they are living too close to the problems for comfort. It is how I feel in regard to the events that have now taken place.

By contrast, the politicians are full of certainties in appearance as well as words. They are also full of the kind of gamesmanship that shows that they are wholly emotionally detached from it. I find that rather sickening and somewhat fake. And I have to say that Gove seems absolutely round the twist in his general demeanour on Newsnight. Borderline mad.

[Mr Pee]

By contrast, the politicians are full of certainties in appearance as well as words. They are also full of the kind of gamesmanship that shows that they are wholly emotionally detached from it. I find that rather sickening and somewhat fake. And I have to say that Gove seems absolutely round the twist in his general demeanour on Newsnight. Borderline mad.

I would hope that our politicians are full of certainties. I don't want somebody in a position of power at a time like this who exudes anything other than confidence and certainty. And they have to stay emotionally detached, don't they? How else can they be expected to make the decisions that need to be made? Perhaps you'd rather they shared the "emotional confusion" and "bemusement" that you mention. Sounds like a pretty bad recipe for a politician if you ask me.

And it's Harman who is borderline mad, as far as I can tell. Gove was merely- and rightly- furious at her despicable attempts to score cheap political points from this dreadful situation.

[PJPJ]

.......
...and they express anger, our anger, my anger and rage at this society and its power structures, inequality, incompetence, and ignorance .... i will not condemn or judge the kids for what they are doing, it seems to me that their actions are a lot less devastating to us all than the perfidies of financial crisis, corruption greed and incompetence that we endure at the hands of the gangsters who run the show ... nor will i praise them, i just feel shame that our society is this disordered .... there is no 'they' the kids are us, we are all in this ... or else face the reality that there is no 'we' .... and lose it all ....

I do agree with much you have to say but will condemn the people for what they are doing. These are largely disaffected and greedy young (but by no means totally - plenty of adult criminals in their midst) who have lost the discernment between right and wrong, or don't care, as they witness from day to day their greedy elders and betters doing as they please without much calling to account. They should all be condemned.

Rather like, for example, Baroness Uddin, although, to her credit, she didn't commit arson.

As for Harman and Gove, they surely deserve one another; they are both mystery winners in our electoral system.

[gurnemanz]

I have found Blowers and Aggers on Test Match Special to be a pleasant escapist antidote to the unedifying Gove/Harman show. It was interesting that Gove was genuinely riled where HH stayed totally cool despite a very personal onslaught.

Interesting contrast as to how our young people get their summer kicks - polar bear watching in Norway or staying in old Blighty for some looting and arson.

Memories of Summer 2011 - Reeves Corner an iconic if undistinguished landmark of my birthplace, Croydon, mindlessly destroyed. Clapham Junction which I travelled to every day for 7 years ago as schoolboy 40 years ago casually trashed by nihilistic marauders.

[Chris Newman]

Gove was merely- and rightly- furious at her despicable attempts to score cheap political points from this dreadful situation.

Yes, in the context of a programme where Gove expected national unity he saw it as a cheap political point. But his loss of self control was because someone dared to question his risible and vainly short-sighted policies which have gone a long way towards exacerbating the deeper problems like lack of parental control. He came across as he is...a spoilt brat whose lollipop had been taken away and an incompetent myopic fool.

[eighthobstruction]

Goves arrogance and intolerance of split infinitives are well known....he gets angry....exquisitely.... Tories better keep him off the airwaves, he could cause tension....

It made me remember those marvellous fire-stokers Norman Tebbit, Leon Briton, and Keith Joseph....Whooosh

Mr Pee your link to the Katharine Birbalsingh article....only exposed a writer who did not know the facts as regards Mr Duggans demise....no body knows exactly. Katharine Birbalsingh riffed on her usual subject [seemingly the only one she knows] ....

[scottycelt]

If he got arrested then it's his own fault for jumping on the bandwagon.

I was being shamefully sarcastic, Anna, merely drawing attention to the fact that the thugs and looters are not necessarily all poor, underprivileged 'kids' as some here appear to be suggesting. The gorilla-like animals who ransacked the poor Malaysian boy's backpack looked pretty old in the tooth to me to be described as 'kids'. Goats, especially, might be appalled and insulted at the description.

[eighthobstruction]

Yes, I too am feeling an extraordinary sense of Bathos as I write about the riots while listening to TMS.....[No Plasma Screen here !!]

I am reminded of that beginning of the Act in Macbeth, where the Watchman pisses against a wall at the gate of the castle; in which Macbeth is at that moment on a career of murder.....

[ahinton]

The Mr Pee knee-jerk diagnosis and treatment is as predictable as it is predicatably over-simplistic; I suppose that none of us need expect to be surprised at that.

The authorisation of the deployment of water cannon at notice is, of course, risible for reasons already stated here, but I wonder how long that will pertain until the environmental lot will slap a curtailment order on it as a consequence of water shortage? Water cannon can also do damage even when used with care (albeit nothing like the amount of damage that's being done by the rioters and looters); who pays for that?

The troubles have yet to spread to Hereford (the city nearest to me at the moment), although given its parlous state of the city right now I might feel surprise if it escapes were it not for the fact that there are probably insufficient shops carrying stock worth stealing that the miscreants might well decide to give it a miss. There are already – and will of course continue to be – all manner of questionings about the possible root causes and the solutions (if any) for years to come. It’s hard to account for most of it other than as mindless violence committed mainly against innocent individuals, their homes and their small businesses; were the root causes principally to centre around unrest arising from continuing socio-economic inequalities and other such malaise, it might not be too much to assume that the perpetrators would be better engaged in hacking into banks, insurance companies and other large corporations and into the bank accounts and investments of the wealthy in order to siphon funds off, rather than cause the kinds of damage that can ultimately only make many more people poorer and worsen the situation for the future.

In a discussion of this problem elsewhere, one contributor observed that "inequality is certainly an inevitable feature of capitalism"; I suspect, however, that it is likely also to be an inevitable feature of any alternative economic system that might take its place at some point? I ask this because socio-economic inequalities do not simply happen - they're brought about by people - and not necessarily only by those people who already have ample wealth either.

Some commentators are claiming (perhaps correctly) that the income gap between highest and lowest is greater in London than in any other major Western city, although whether similar claims are being made that the same applies to other British cities compored to those of similar size elsewhere I do not know. If it's true across the board, that might at least go some way to accounting for the level of disillusion among those on the lowest incomes, but proportion is another factor. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the highest annual income in London is £10m and the lowest £1,000. The way that this may be spread is surely as important as the extent of the gap - i.e. if 1% of Londoners were on around £10m p.a., attitudes to this would be rather different to those that would pertain if only 0.01% were on such incomes; likewise the average income is another factor in that one could have the same gap between lowest and highest but an average of, say, £20,000 or £50,000. Again, attitudes will differ in accordance with that average and those proportions just as they will about the gap between lowest and highest. Consideration of socio-economic factors rarely take into account those who are asset rich and relatively cash poor - i.e. those who happen to live in expensive properties that they can't sell but whose disposable incomes and readily accessible cash are very small; such people are in the minority, admittedly, but they're still part of the fabric of society.

[Lateralthinking1]

To balance this up a bit, I am going to bring out my more "Mr Pee" side. I do believe that this is a problem with the top and the bottom. Those of us in the middle - the majority - are getting kicked by all sides. If the top are the country's well-off, greedy, irresponsible, political parents and the bottom are their rather desperate, greedy, irresponsible kids, then the middle clearly represents adulthood. Looks like we are on our own in managing and policing our affairs and those in our locality as best we can.

So, yes, I'm for harsh penalties and because these are very unusual circumstances, I want to see something very distinctive about the arrangements put in place, not just the usual. Symbolically, they need to be carted off somewhere in groups in full view of the cameras and there needs to be a supervised hard work element, not just dossing in cells. Also NO access to electronic devices.

I also think we are too prissy about the tradition of policing in mainland Britain. The use of water cannon - and there are few of those - and rubber bullets needs to be an option. Also the army. The threat in itself might be sufficient and even if they have to be used it doesn't mean that this will be the authorised way for other policing. The same is true of things like kettling and even truncheons. It is an entirely different situation to a demo. And please Prime Minister, don't be a twit and say how long it would take to use them. It isn't the greatest strategy in this age of blackberries is it? Oh dear, he already has!

Donny says that GTO is great with Mozart. It might hit the brain in a different way with Public Enemy. IQ differences are probably significant too. But honestly - it is technically and artistically brilliant? Surely he must be joking. Let others be the judge. Here is the clip again - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUAeh...eature=related.

On Harriet, I'm no fan. Of course, she represents the constituency where I spent most of my Sundays in my youth up in a tower block. I will never forget when she stood for that seat. This woman who emerged from aristocracy tried to twist her voice into a South London accent daily. At times, it was as hilarious as it was pathetic.

Finally, and very sadly, I think we do have a British of West Indian origin problem here. Newcastle - no riots, 1% of the population black. Bradford - no riots, huge ethnic population but again just 1% black.

[eighthobstruction]

Looking at this with my usual oblique perpective....I cannot but help see this worship of Nike, Adidas, Bench, Logo brands as some form of 'cargoe culture'....

....who was it who did that marvellous rap, 'flavour of the month'....

With all these new TV's entering the w/c households of the ghettos....lets hope they are watching the news and current affairs prog's commenting and analysing the situation....

My goodness those 2 girls from Brissle were thick [gert thick]. Talk about lacking knowledge or insight....well that's education,education, education for you....

The only thing I agree with Gove about is that much of the contemporary gang culture, was not attended to by NuLab....happened on their watch....

[Nick Armstrong]

...er David Cameron's hug a hoodie speech ... speaks volumes today eh ...

dramatic male display hasn't been mentioned yet .... what other cards do "hoodies" have to play in the mating game but extravagant high risk and competitive aggressive display [these days either sex]


the change in employment patterns ... educational requirements were not high in most factory, steel works, docks, ship yard and other manual labour jobs ... there aren't any now ... in the old days i recall that the working underclass was a bit rough too ...

obey the law? why? who does? bankers? politicians? police? celebrities? life is a lottery these days? you get nowhere in consumerism without helping yourself [ultimately there is only a marginal difference between shopping on plastic and looting - the obligation to pay is just another version of the full force of the law] the plod have destroyed respect for the law on the street [if it ever existed]

study? why? gradaute unemployment has never been worse, it costs a fortune and leaves you in debt ....

the looting is selective ... fashion, electronics, booze and fags ... not food or basics


images of upper class privilege are everywhere [the royal wedding anyone?] and the mobility of the parents and grandparents time has disappeared ...

asking why they happened at all is not the question for me ..why aren't they much worse? why are they not political? ..they are not opposition, they are shopping without cash or credit .... and showing off inside their world and putting two fingers up to the rest of us ....


...and they express anger, our anger, my anger and rage at this society and its power structures, inequality, incompetence, and ignorance .... i will not condemn or judge the kids for what they are doing, it seems to me that their actions are a lot less devastating to us all than the perfidies of financial crisis, corruption greed and incompetence that we endure at the hands of the gangsters who run the show ... nor will i praise them, i just feel shame that our society is this disordered .... there is no 'they' the kids are us, we are all in this ... or else face the reality that there is no 'we' .... and lose it all ....

Not sure I have ever read anything more eloquent, comprehensive or thought-provoking on these boards

[Serial_Apologist]

Sir High Orde, head of ACPO, said effectively on lunchtime news that if rubber bullets or water cannon are to be considered, the former would be the preferred first option, but that neither is of use in a moving crowd scenario, only when officers are gravely in danger and under attack. Somehow I don't quite see this - and the thought of putting rubber or plastic bullets, proved to kill, before water cannon, is frankly chilling.

[eighthobstruction]

Marvellous interview with father of the Asian man in Birmingham who was run over; hit and run during the protection of property from rioters.

Very moving and calm....very clear thinking, in the face of bereavement [only a few hours old]....clarity in his appeal for peace.

This was on R4 1300hrs News [about 5 minutes in]....very worth listening to, although I expect it will be repeated as sound bites later in the day.

Yes, that was a good ol'rift you got on there CadaJa

[Lateralthinking1]

Chilling - yes hopefully.