Riots

[french frank]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14463452

"Psychologists argue that a person loses their moral identity in a large group, and empathy and guilt - the qualities that stop us behaving like criminals - are corroded."

"Humans are the best on the planet at imitating. And we tend to imitate what is successful."

Depressing reflections on the intellect of the highest form of animal life ...

[Simon]

"ShB mentioned the Police tackling gingerly. They can't win. If they take a zero tolerance approach they are accused of over-reacting, as occurred when they arrested UK Uncut protesters who had occupied Fortnum & Mason in March. And if they take a tactical decision to stand back, as they did to some extent at the weekend, they are castigated for being ineffectual. If they went in hard yesterday and cracked a few heads together they would have been accused of racism, something which I think they are terrified of hence the pussyfooting."

Absolutely.

Largely caused by leftist commentators and anarchists who are always ready to have a go at the forces of law and order. We've read such stuff in the past even on here, sadly.

As to the vigilantes mentioned by scotty - excellent! I'm afraid this may be ultimately the only way to sort out the no go areas in some of our cities. Of course, the cities should never have been allowed to develop as they have, but that's down to 50 years of misguided policy from many governments.

We don't have these problems in villages. the reason for that is, of course, because people know each other as human beings and are usually able to interact as a community to give mutual help and support if necessary. But large communities can't offer this in the same way. When you throw into the mix groups of people of completely different cultures and worldviews, you have no chance. I don't suppose there's any way back now: what a tragedy.

[Anna]

Talking about watercanons - my brother was in the bloody 2007 riot in Santiago against the government of president Michele Bachelet. The canons there had the water laced with tear gas and the barricades were burning. That was a real riot!

Thanks for that clip frenchie about the two girls, wish I hadn't played the video now and found out they resembled two planks. Hope Bristol is quiet btw.

Edit: Just seen Simon's post (welcome back) Yes, I can imagine you as a vigilante, a bit like Nigel Pargeter with a 12 bore!

[Simon]

"Psychologists argue that a person loses their moral identity in a large group, and empathy and guilt - the qualities that stop us behaving like criminals - are corroded."

"Humans are the best on the planet at imitating. And we tend to imitate what is successful."

Depressing reflections on the intellect of the highest form of animal life ...

Well the first comment is hardly a reflection on intellect, it's a comment on morality. It may apply to some people, but it certainly doesn't apply to all.

[french frank]

Well the first comment is hardly a reflection on intellect, it's a comment on morality.

It's a comment on morality, yes. But as was also said, whatever the explanations for the behaviour, people still have choice - and choices need some kind of thought.

[Anna]

Nice bit of Spin today. When Cameron gave his speech did you notice that guarding the door of No. 10 there was a black policeman? Clever stuff!

[StephenO]

As to the vigilantes mentioned by scotty - excellent! I'm afraid this may be ultimately the only way to sort out the no go areas in some of our cities

No, Simon, it isn't. It's bad enough having gangs of young, lawless thugs and hooligans rioting and looting without having gangs of equally lawless vigilantes turning riots into possible bloodbaths. Once such people are allowed to inflame the situation even further by taking matters into their own hands we can say goodbye to the rule of law.

Of course, the cities should never have been allowed to develop as they have, but that's down to 50 years of misguided policy from many governments.

Quite, but the immediate priority is to deal with the rioting, something which the police appear to be trying their best to do, albeit with limited success. Things seem to be quieter (so far) tonight, in London at least, so possibly the softly softly tactics are working. Then we can begin to tackle the underlying social problems, if - and only if - the government is prepared to put aside economic dogma and act in the best interests of everyone in Britain.

It's particularly frightening that copycat riots are breaking out in other cities. Whatever social issues are involved I fail to see how anyone can think the solution is to wreck their own neighbourhoods and to wreak devastation on the local infrastructure. If unemployment and lack of opportunities are the problems, how can these possibly be solved by destroying the very businesses and services which could help create jobs? It's as though a madness has overtaken people.

[cavatina]

Not all members of the underclass are looters or subhuman scum who don't deserve to be treated with basic human dignity. After all, are you so certain you'll always be fortunate and privileged enough to have the "prospects and a future" you enjoy today? You make good choices and haven't been struck by disaster-- are you so certain your winning streak will last? Every single one of us is about three or four really, really bad decisions (or bad breaks) away from being homeless ourselves. Poverty and destitution is closer than you think.

After tonight's concert-- like I would after any other concert-- I walked down to the dumpsters behind the High Street Kensington Tesco and gathered discarded day-old packaged food to give away to the homeless people I come across on my walk home. These aren't antisocial criminals out to burn down the world: for the most part, these are dazed, hopeless, mentally-ill alcoholics and addicts fighting their own inner battles who gave up on life and whom society forgot about.

When I walked up to one sad old man slumped on the pavement in a filthy sleeping bag and gave him an enormous bagful of day-old cakes and muffins, he was so taken aback he started to cry.

There but for the grace of God go you or I.
And if that strikes you as being a rather peculiar sentiment coming from an atheist, then so be it.

[Chris Newman]

I agree that cities have developed badly and would put than down to well over 50 years of misguided planning. I do not favour the use of vigilantes as they have the potential of being as bad as the troublemakers we see at the moment and it is another step in raising the stakes just as would be the use of rubber or plastic bullets by the police. As I type I hear on the news (23.20 on Newsnight) that the police in Eltham (London) have requested that a large group of well-meaning "proud locals including Charlton and West Ham fans out to protect their area" go to bed rather than getting in their way.

[Serial_Apologist]

Camila Batmanghelidjh of Kids Company

One of nature's great inspirations today, imv. I would also like to hear Oliver James's views on what is happening.

[StephenO]

Not all members of the underclass are subhuman scum who don't deserve to be treated with basic human dignity.

Are any of them? Misguided, thuggish and criminal in some cases but "subhuman scum"? And don't we all deserve to be treated with basic human dignity?

There but for the grace of God go you or I.
And if that strikes you as being a rather peculiar sentiment coming from an atheist, then so be it.

Not peculiar, just refreshing. We all have a spark of God in us: Christians, atheists, even rioters - although that last group are keeping it pretty well hidden at the moment.

[Simon]

What a refreshing mix of sensible, rational and decent posts have appeared!

Perhaps a couple of points, if I may:

A. I'm not sure how serious I was being about the desirability of citizens' groups (serious in the sense of really meaning that it was, yet anyway, an excellent thing). There has alway seemed to be an accepted position by all sides that such groups are "a bad thing", for obvious and rational reasons. But that position needs the assumption that a widely accepted and effective "Rule of Law" in philosophical and practical terms is present. If the assumption is correct, then fine, but what if it isn't - even temporarily or sporadically or in certain places?

Is there a case that in anarchic situations, where the RoL has ceased to be respected, other methods of protecting oneself and one's property (pace M. Proudhon), other methods need to be tried?

Broadening that out, is there a case that the RoL has in many cases failed us anyway? I may be wrong, but I saw somewhere (probably the start-up screen on the net) that the killers and torturers of "Baby P" are now free. After a couple of years. For one of the most horrendous crimes that one can commit. Add that to the wrist-slaps that are meted out to most offenders, and you have a system which, arguably, is so broken and ineffective as a deterrent against criminal activity that in many cases it's a waste of time and resources.

B. Whilst agreeing 100% with the humanitarian sentiments of cavatina, I'm not sure what this has to do with rioters looting ipads. Is there a suggestion that these were homeless and dispossessed people who may be ill? If so I haven't heard it.

[cavatina]

Are any of them? Misguided, thuggish and criminal in some cases but "subhuman scum"? And don't we all deserve to be treated with basic human dignity?

Sure, absolutely...perhaps in my choice of words, I was just riffing on kind of right-wing rhetoric one hears in the US.

B. Whilst agreeing 100% with the humanitarian sentiments of cavatina, I'm not sure what this has to do with rioters looting ipads. Is there a suggestion that these were homeless and dispossessed people who may be ill? If so I haven't heard it.

No, but in some of these posts, I was just getting a vague whiff of "us versus them" class bias, that's all.

[Lateralthinking1]

I think I have worked out what makes me particularly uneasy about these riots. While they share characteristics with earlier ones - including 1981 - in that they involve those who have less than others have, the looters are not in mentality for a different system.

Rather, this is an anarchy that is wholly capitalist with its emphasis on grabbing phones and trainers. Those are not being seen by the rioters as ludicrously over-priced and manufactured by poor children in sweatshops. Instead, they remain seen as godlike goods just as Apple, Nike and Cameron want them to be.

So - as I felt earlier on, but couldn't fully rationalise, they are indeed a direct reflection of the kind of private enterprise that cares little about peoples lives and which is fully supported by Government. It is the feral anarchism of the markets but displayed less systematically and closer to home.

[Lateralthinking1]

A few comments on this afternoon's posts.

# 110 Serial_Apologist - "The old problem of "My enemy's enemy is my friend" syndrome" - Yes, absolutely. It is easy to fall into it and many will do.

#112 Scottycelt - "It helps to pay me taxes" - Yes, only when we get to see the profiles of the convicted will we have a true picture of what has been taking place. "It's a sad day when I end up agreeing with the likes of Nigel Farage" - Yes, ditto, I do believe that this will have a huge impact in the long-term on voters and will lead to a new politics with more complex strands. We are moving towards an era in which people will be fairly indifferent to race, gender, class and sexuality - not anti "types" of people and not pro - but instead looking at the behaviour of everyone, including leaders, to see if they see Britain as a community.

#113 aeolium - "Gordon Riots" - "Chartism" by Robert Gammage sits like a Bible in my book collection. "Auden - Those To Whom Evil is Done/Do Evil in Return" - Yes, and it is interesting, perhaps heartwarming, how so many contributors are turning to literary references during this time. Perhaps this says something important to us too.

#114 Old khayyam - "Maybe they are committing acts as a political protest" - Yes, albeit vaguely. There is something perhaps about not being one of the 50% going to university, who is then also unlikely to get a job of any kind during high unemployment, and yet is being told consistently that only work until 70 will guarantee survival. Those circumstances would look like a form of murder to many. How will they make it even to 25? This would lead to intense anger - even at 47, I felt that I was being bumped off by the powers that be and to some extent still do. One almost wants them to burn and feels horrified to feel like it.

#120 Anna - "LBC" - Kind warning - Going through the night with all of the reports coming in on phone-ins is bad for your health. I have done two now with Joanne Good on BBC London and then Cristo on LBC and ended up at breakfast with blood boiling.

#122 Mercia - "Shallow materialistic society" - Yes.