Where everyone ignores the score

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There are some pieces of music where it seems that absolutely everyone ignores the rhythm set down in the score. For example:
Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, when the rich romantic Rachmaninov-style theme begins in the second half;
Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Memory" from "Cats" - the 10/8 that is always performed as a 12/8 bar.

Any others?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, I got zero response from this one when I posted it some 19 months ago, but I was reminded of it yesterday afternoon when rehearsing for a concert that included "Memory". The conductor had decided to go with the flow and accept the 10/8 bar as 12/8, but the (rather brilliant) accompanist did question this before going along with the change.

[MrGongGong]

"Conventional" music notation (as Cage points out) is a very imprecise way of notating sounds and often rhythms, some things which are simple to "feel" look horrendous on a page.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Of course, but I'm referring to places where convention changes the rhythms far more than that, including the two examples I gave in #1.

[VodkaDilc]

There are some pieces of music where it seems that absolutely everyone ignores the rhythm set down in the score. For example:
Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, when the rich romantic Rachmaninov-style theme begins in the second half;
Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Memory" from "Cats" - the 10/8 that is always performed as a 12/8 bar.

Any others?

I think I should claim a bonus point here: Having 'done' Memory many times with school choirs, I always interpreted the 10/8 bar literally. Children being children (and not having had our expectations instilled in them) always thought it completely natural.

On the Rhapsody in Blue question, didn't GG's performances of this and of most of his music take considerable rhythmic liberties?

[MrGongGong]

Of course, but I'm referring to places where convention changes the rhythms far more than that, including the two examples I gave in #1.

I know
but i'm curious about why it bothers you so much ?
A good friend of mine gave up trying to get his choir and congregation not to sing a-en-gels in "O come all ye faithful" , he even tried having a rehearsal for everyone in a effort to get them to sing what is written. BUT , things evolve , i'm sure musicologists of the future will find much to think about.

[BBMmk2]

John Cage's 4'30", well everybody never reads the score!

Regarding the 10/8 bar of ALWs Memory from 'Cats', I dont see how people can do this in 12/8/. 10/8 is quite easy really

[MrGongGong]

John Cage's 4'30", well everybody never reads the score!

I think you mean 4:33" ?
and that is a very accurate score to follow indeed .....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think I should claim a bonus point here: Having 'done' Memory many times with school choirs, I always interpreted the 10/8 bar literally. Children being children (and not having had our expectations instilled in them) always thought it completely natural.

You do deserve your bonus point. I recall a GCSE moderator awarding extra marks for observing the 10/8 bar.

On the Rhapsody in Blue question, didn't GG's performances of this and of most of his music take considerable rhythmic liberties? But it's the 12/8 version that you're most likely to hear in the West End.

On the piano roll version of R. in B., Gershwin keeps quite close to the written tempo, but when he is justaposed with Michael Tillson Thomas's orchestral superimposition, there is much stretching out of the rhythms by the conductor. So there's something of a dual here.

[Alain Maréchal]

I'd approve of any change to the score of "Memory" that gets it over and done with more quickly.

Pianist in last movement of aleatoric work takes hammer and attacks strings.
Critic 1 to Critic 2: "my score says wooden mallet"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'd approve of any change to the score of "Memory" that gets it over and done with more quickly.

Turning 10/8 bars into 12/8 makes it last for longer. The original version (Ravel's Bolero) lasts for even longer.

[ardcarp]

Any others?

Sibelius' Valse Triste. No conductor seems able to play it straight. Most performances metamorphose through Valse Jolly, Valse Passionate, Valse Viennese....in fact it usually ends up a Valse Schizophrenic, whereas I'm sure old JS just wanted to write a sad waltz.

[Alain Maréchal]

Turning 10/8 bars into 12/8 makes it last for longer.

I wrote 'any chnage', this would include the imsertion of "prestissimo" at the top of the score.

[Pabmusic]

John Cage's 4'30", well everybody never reads the score!...

I think you mean 4:33" ?
and that is a very accurate score to follow indeed .....

No. 4'30" is a new, reduced Classic FM version.

[Pabmusic]

A piece that's often mis-performed is Elgar's P & C No. 1. It's because of the nearly ubiquitous singing, of course. When the big tune comes for the last time, in D major, Elgar alters its rhythm at the climax from the familiar syncopated minim-quaver-crotchet-quaver, to minim-quaver-quaver-crotchet. It's very effective, but is always lost if people sing, because audiences insist on their own version(s). I've even seen performing sets where the bar has been changed back to "the version everyone knows".

Of course it's Elgar's own fault for putting words to the tune in the first place, but naively expecting people will sing only the song version.