A courteous, intelligent and informed discussion about religion

[doversoul1]

Sorry. I am picking up these not terribly desirable habit s of abbreviating words: Opening (original?) Post.

As I am here, I’m sorry I cannot find it but did you not say in one of your posts that ‘faith is not a choice’ or something similar? Could you expand on this point a little? Oh, after you have ‘dealt’ with ()Richard.


Thank you.

[salymap]

Clue. What you do when the postie comes.

Oh sorry, too late as usual.

[Richard Tarleton]

Sorry. I am picking up these not terribly desirable habit s of abbreviating words: Opening (original?) Post.

As I am here, I’m sorry I cannot find it but did you not say in one of your posts that ‘faith is not a choice’ or something similar? Could you expand on this point a little? Oh, after you have ‘dealt’ with ()Richard.


Thank you.

I think that was me, dover, in my post making reference to Schopenhauer and how we know things

Still waiting to be dealt with

[french frank]

say in one of your posts that ‘faith is not a choice’ or something similar?

There are several definitions of 'faith', but one from the OED which struck me was: "The spiritual apprehension of divine truths, or of realities beyond the reach of sensible experience or logical proof." That wouldn't seem open to choice. Unlike (religious or secular) 'belief' where you might either apprehend something as being true, or you can choose to accept it as being true for a particular purpose.

[I'm not even sure whether this is on-topic or not, as other than discussing matters of religion courteously &c I'm not sure what the exact topic was ]

[Don Basilio]

Gosh, I don't want to "deal" with Richard. Just clarify my own views...

I'm sure I would never say "faith is not a choice." I'd have thought that among other things it meant commitment, even when things went hard. I don't find ff's dictionary definition very helpful, even is it is one use of the word.

[Richard Tarleton]

Sorry. I am picking up these not terribly desirable habit s of abbreviating words: Opening (original?) Post.

As I am here, I’m sorry I cannot find it but did you not say in one of your posts that ‘faith is not a choice’ or something similar? Could you expand on this point a little? Oh, after you have ‘dealt’ with ()Richard. Thank you.

What I think I meant was that you can be persuaded of something by reasoned argument but you can’t just decide to have faith in something . You either have it or you don’t. There are all sorts of ways in which you might find yourself having faith in something, or losing it, but faith, being based on non-rational (supra-rational, whatever – I’m not knocking it) considerations, isn’t something that can readily be shared with someone in the way a point of view based on objectively verifiable criteria might be. Arguments about religion where one party’s viewpoint is faith-based and the other’s not usually founder in my experience because of the lack of agreed criteria.

[Richard Tarleton]

Gosh, I don't want to "deal" with Richard. Just clarify my own views...

Only joking! Actually I'm meant to be doing some work here but can't resist seeing what's going on......

[vinteuil]

‘faith is not a choice’ or something similar? Could you expand on this point a little?
Thank you.

whether we have the ability to choose to have faith or not is one of the biggies of theology from S Augustine onwards. Augustine endeavoured to preserve man's free will by distinguishing between prevenient grace (grace antecedent to conversion), which is a free gift of God, and subsequent grace, in which the divine energy cooperates with man after his conversion; and also by distinguishing sufficient from efficacious grace. The former, tho' adequate, is not in fact followed by its proper result, while the latter is so followed. The effect depends on the congruity or appropriateness of the grace - and that is of God's choice...

But it is a subject that has bedevilled theology for centuries, and is a key issue for such as Pelagius, Cassian, S Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Luther, Calvin; it also underlies the battles between the Jesuits and the Jansenists...

[Serial_Apologist]

Isn't faith akin to trust? Religious people talk about trusting in God, and it always seems synonymous. In the sense that I tend to trust in my intuition, albeit that it is never totally reliable, if... and it's a big if... the concept God or a god is poetic license for the natural order - from which I cannot separate myself, other than conceptually - then I am happy in defining myself as an agnostic, rather than an atheist.

Hope that's not too convoluted...

S-A

[Serial_Apologist]

but faith, being based on non-rational (supra-rational, whatever – I’m not knocking it) considerations, isn’t something that can readily be shared with someone in the way a point of view based on objectively verifiable criteria might be.

Not in that way, true; but were faith to be considered as a matter of trusting in one's own nature - there being no alternative - then, if we all had that trust, we could all share it?

[french frank]

I'm sure I would never say "faith is not a choice." I'd have thought that among other things it meant commitment, even when things went hard. I don't find ff's dictionary definition very helpful, even is it is one use of the word.

I was only trying to find a sense of the word that might suggest 'faith is not a choice'. Whereas if, for you, it includes the notion of commitment, I can't see how it doesn't involve some measure of decision and choice. But I would have suggested that faith demands commitment rather than includes it. (nb, I of no faith)

And 'trust'(vb) is essentially something you choose to do (?): it may be easy depending on your experience and feelings, it may be a complete leap in the dark. Not confined to religion either.

[Serial_Apologist]

And 'trust'(vb) is essentially something you choose to do (?)

It depends, as Professor Joad of Brains Trust renown might have said, on what you mean by "do".

Or, in the famous graffiti quote

To do is to be (Plato)
To be is to do (Sartre)
Do be do be do (Frank Sinatra)

[french frank]

It depends, as Professor Joad of Brains Trust renown might have said, on what you mean by "do".

Or, in the famous graffiti quote

To do is to be (Plato)
To be is to do (Sartre)
Do be do be do (Frank Sinatra)

In this case, I should have said 'to put your trust in s.o.' (rather than 'to trust') which would involve a special situation.

I note vinteuil's comments which suggest there is no fixed theological definition of 'faith', don't they?

[amateur51]

In this case, I should have said 'to put your trust in s.o.' (rather than 'to trust') which would involve a special situation.

I note vinteuil's comments which suggest there is no fixed theological definition of 'faith', don't they?

I'm shocked, french frank!

Talking about it only encourages them, as you well know

[doversoul1]

Before things get too complicated, shouldn’t we keep faith whose definition ff quoted from OED and [religious] faith separately? But if the two are (theoretically) linked in some way, I’ll be interested in hearing about it.

Don
Please ignore this if you think it is too personal but why do you have Eeyore for your avatar?

Richard

Actually I'm meant to be doing some work here but can't resist seeing what's going on......

Same here.