Duolingo

[Dave2002]

But a big reward is the insights in to a whole new way of thinking - fr'instance we are so used to our European tense system, so to encounter a language that doesn't see time like that - Semitic languages only have 'perfective' (something finished) and 'imperfective' (something still on-going) - makes you think more deeply how we perceive the world. If we think in terms of past/present/future, then a 'prophecy' becomes something like a horoscope in a newspaper - "You will meet a tall dark stranger... " - whereas in Arabic or Hebrew, a prophecy is more like God talking in a perpetual not-finished present. I think many (English-speaking) people's reading of the Bible when it comes to prophecy therefore is often prone to deep misunderstanding.

This is a good point. There are several ways in which one's thinking can change. One is technical - whether a language uses articles (definite, indefinite, etc.) Languages like Swedish and Romanian do use articles, but they come at the end of each word, rather than as a separate word usually used before a word. Another technical grammatical point is word order. German puts the verb at the end of sentences, and this leads to jokes (??) about EU meetings and multiple translations - depending on who is speaking. Listeners can't be sure whether something is going to happen - or not - until right at the end. Some languages apparently also use generic words for "things". As I don't know such a language I can only guess - but something like "The thing did the thing to the things" might give an impression, but apparently the context allows the participants in the communication to know what is actually going on.

A couple of other points - brevity and what we might consider politeness in English. English is very rich and for most circumstances there are many words and many ways of saying things. Even so, in some languages there may be many ways of saying very precise things about certain things, such as weather - languages which have many different words for snow, which are meaningful to the people who speak those languages. Even Scots has many ways to describe rainy or miserable weather. However, on the whole English contains a very large vocabulary. Other languages may use what we would call simpler sentences, which may seem very abrupt and forceful to English speakers. We might say "Please do it by tomorrow", whereas in another language the equivalent might be "Do it by tomorrow", or if there isn't a need to specify time "Do it". Foreign speakers often do not understand the function of "please" - they might think it means some form of option. Conversely an English speaker might think it's rude to omit some form of translation of "please" into another language, but often it's not, and the native speakers will wonder why extra words are put in. They don't necessarily think it's rude not to have such words - they don't use them themselves.

After that, and all the different aspects of what is actually said, there is still another layer - will people act and react in ways similar to us in the UK. The answer may still be no. That is very cultural, and one needs to know more about the society in which one is embedded.

[kernelbogey]

... Sorry for the digression - but I do think the learning of a language is the best way of expanding the brain in so many ways....

Thank you for a most interesting digression!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think it’s a good way of learning the basics of a language for a trip abroad .It relies a lot on repetition and it’s very cunningly designed to alleviate the tedium of learning a language . But as always with these things you just have to keep going . I suspect to get to an advanced stage you are to start reading the language and writing it and that needs , I think , face to face or one to one online tuition I.e. someone marking it and actively correcting errors.
I spent a couple of weeks ‘learning “ Irish Gaelic and at the end of that could order a pint, meal , say hallo etc. Not something you need to know in Ireland obviously as everyone speaks English but it’s a very interesting language and I wanted to know a bit about something other than Germanic and Romance languages .
One thing I”m not convinced by is Google translate .I’ve tried picking me way through a few French Novels ( e.g. Chanson- Douce)
It has all the literal qualities of an underprepared examinee about to fail French GCSE - no sense of idiom at all..

[Dave2002]

One thing I”m not convinced by is Google translate .I’ve tried picking me way through a few French Novels ( e.g. Chanson- Douce)
It has all the literal qualities of an underprepared examinee about to fail French GCSE - no sense of idiom at all..

I was sometimes asked to translate English to English. This was for papers to be sent to conferences or journals. The "English" had been written usually by English speaking Swedes - who in fairness often had very good spoken English. This often turned out to be very difficult. Sometimes it was "just" a matter of "we wouldn't say/write that" - so a relatively simple "idiom switch", whereas sometimes it involved more of an interrogation "what were you actually trying to say?".

These people were operating a a higher level of understanding than Google translate - but it was still difficult.

Conversely, they were very tolerant of my efforts when I tried to speak or write their language, for which I was very grateful.

[kernelbogey]

We saw La Traviata in Helsinki. Ordering the tickets was a challenge - but the helpful person said when we enquired about what language was going to be used (answer Italian ...) - oh - it'll be fine. There'll be surtitles.

Many years ago some friends who had no Russian, visited Russia. Outside an opera house (don't remember where) they saw a poster advertising that night's performance. They could work out that the opera was by Verdi but the title was just two incomprehensible words in cyrillic. They bought two tickets, but were completely in the dark about whether they would be seeing La traviata or Il trovatore!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was sometimes asked to translate English to English. This was for papers to be sent to conferences or journals. The "English" had been written usually by English speaking Swedes - who in fairness often had very good spoken English. This often turned out to be very difficult. Sometimes it was "just" a matter of "we wouldn't say/write that" - so a relatively simple "idiom switch", whereas sometimes it involved more of an interrogation "what were you actually trying to say?".

These people were operating a a higher level of understanding than Google translate - but it was still difficult.

Conversely, they were very tolerant of my efforts when I tried to speak or write their language, for which I was very grateful.

I’ve lost count of the number of French hotel/ restaurant websites I’ve read where they’ve either relied on Google translate or a mate who’ll do it on the cheap and the result is a comic mishmash of unidiomatic English. I’m not saying my efforts into French would be any better but if I was in a commercial venture I would get a local to translate my French into their French.

[kernelbogey]

I’ve lost count of the number of French hotel/ restaurant websites I’ve read where they’ve either relied on Google translate or a mate who’ll do it on the cheap and the result is a comic mishmash of unidiomatic English. I’m not saying my efforts into French would be any better but if I was in a commercial venture I would get a local to translate my French into their French.

"A French widow in every bedroom affords magnificent prospects." (Gerard Hoffnung)

[Pulcinella]

I’ve lost count of the number of French hotel/ restaurant websites I’ve read where they’ve either relied on Google translate or a mate who’ll do it on the cheap and the result is a comic mishmash of unidiomatic English. I’m not saying my efforts into French would be any better but if I was in a commercial venture I would get a local to translate my French into their French.

In travels round Italy, my partner and I often wondered if there was a living to be made (or at least a free meal every day) from going to restaurants and offering to make sense of their curious menus.

[Ein Heldenleben]

In travels round Italy, my partner and I often wondered if there was a living to be made (or at least a free meal every day) from going to restaurants and offering to make sense of their curious menus.

The same thought had occurred to me many times. One classic howler in Southern Spain is using the literal translation of the (admittedly quite difficult to translate ) word Duende as goblin . So you get professionally produced tourist guides talking about the “essential goblin of Flamenco “

[gurnemanz]

I'm thinking of Russian as a possibility. I spent a week in Moscow and Leningrad (as was) many years ago and it was amazing how quickly basic words and pronunciation were picked up and lodged in the memory. Naturally, I took along a phrase book (Berlitz) and had done a some homework as hardly anyone spoke English but it was a real challenge and one I enjoyed.

When I was an undergraduate in the late 60s there was a bit of a surge in the popularity of Russian. Two of our lecturers at Durham were currently on TV (Tyne Tees Television) with a "Say It In Russian" course. Maybe slightly influenced by this and with a desire to try something new I decided to take Russian as a subsidiary option from scratch in the first two years of my German main degree. It was quite intensive, and we were told that we would get to A Level standard in the first year. In the second year we were reading Pushkin and Tolstoy in the original (sort of) and writing essays (in English). I am grateful to have done the course as a very worthwhile challenge (eg learning the Cyrillic script and the complicated verb system) and have found it useful generally, but it was never any great help in my career. In fact, if I had known I was going to end up as a language teacher I would have continued with French as a subsid, since my French has remained stuck at A level ever since.

[underthecountertenor]

Yep, I 've been using it to brush up my Welsh for a project I was working on. Mark certainly started it for Greek but I haven't asked if he persevered. I thought he wouldn't take to it because he already knew some languages and there's a definite "This is for Dummies" aspect which either irritates or you just take it on board. In the case of Welsh, it was explained that it was also tailored for Welsh schoolchildren (it felt a bit like it).

But: there are notes for each lesson, there's a discussion board with hosts who will answer questions (sometimes ), and it costs nothing. If you're doing it for fun, I'd advise ignoring all the 'rewards' ('lingots') and racing up through the leagues to reach the top. I don't think that that kind of incentive is the best way to learn unless you're not very motivated. I haven't tried learning from scratch, and I have already learnt several languages. But, again, it costs nothing if you want to give it a try. I don't know about any (better) alternative. It isn't really geared for teaching you to speak the language though.

I can’t find the notes and would be grateful for directions. I’m trying the Greek course, and there are some frustrations (mostly the lack of distinction between letters and words for letters) and indeed one error so far that keeps cropping up. With notes I may make better and more useful progress.

[french frank]

I can’t find the notes and would be grateful for directions.

One of the Welsh hosts gave the link https://duome.eu/tips/en/cy (where the final cy is for Cymreig, so it would have to be altered for Greek. I presume en is for English). These notes are updated so although you can copy or download them, it's good to check back from time to time or just use the online version.

The eu site has notes for the entire course, whereas you can click the 'Tips' button at each exercise for the lesson you happen to be doing. Same notes, I think, as the eu site.

[Jonathan]

We're currently using Duolingo to learn Italian and have been using it for nearly 4 weeks. I think it's going to be useful for reading Italian but for actual speaking, I'm not sure if it will "stick" in my head in the same way. All of the experience with Latin shell names and so on has proven useful (especially with the animals section) but the fact that I dropped French pre GCSE (because I didn't like it, although I was good at it) and I've never studied any other languages is making progress slow. My girlfriend is much better at it than I am as she did German at school as well.

[underthecountertenor]

One of the Welsh hosts gave the link https://duome.eu/tips/en/cy (where the final cy is for Cymreig, so it would have to be altered for Greek. I presume en is for English). These notes are updated so although you can copy or download them, it's good to check back from time to time or just use the online version.

The eu site has notes for the entire course, whereas you can click the 'Tips' button at each exercise for the lesson you happen to be doing. Same notes, I think, as the eu site.

Many thanks! (Πολλά ευχαριστώ!)

[french frank]

Many thanks! (Πολλά ευχαριστώ!)

Let me know if it was helpful in practice!