Introducing The Forumistas' Help Desk

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes it probably is showing off. The problem is with words like commodisation* ( the process by which a premium branded good becomes indistinguishable from its competitors as has happened with PC’s for example ) and commodification (the process by which supposedly free things like data , knowledge etc are turned into saleable goods and services) is it takes so long to explain the difference that people rely on either other readers either knowing the meaning or googling it. The problem is that very the relevant wiki entry is often written by academics in a very complex way.
I have to say that the level of vocabulary needed to follow the forum is , with the exception of specialist music terms obvs, way lower than academic prose (some of which is completely unintelligible ) or indeed the prose used in things like the Times Literary Supplement . It is however more demanding than newspapers.

Not a word I ever use cos I can’t spell it ...

Any sharing or displaying of knowledge (about classical music or recordings, say) could be described as "showing off"; which is not at all to say that is its prime motivation.
Where does sharing end and supposed "showing off" begin? The relishing of language and expression? Would anyone care to delineate such rules?

The ability to share deep and specialised knowledge, specialist and arcane terminology or foreign language quotations, without fear of someone complaining or “feeling threatened” has been one of the principal attractions of this forum since at least 2010 after it reformed, independently of the BBC. Just a few years ago, there were several more contributors here - such as fhg, Roehre - who one would always learn a great deal from, precisely for those reasons.
Most of us enjoyed language in itself; using it, quoting it, learning unusual references. Eloquent, finely-articulated argument.

The idea of complaining wouldn’t have occurred to anyone; we were all enjoying learning from each other too much; some of the debates could get pretty vigorous, but we knew the standards here were high and took our bad moments as they came. You had to raise your game to be a part of it.

Suppose I went to the recent Electronic Music thread and said “stop going on about this obscure music I don’t like or understand, I bet many others feel the same!”
I would, I hope, get very short shrift.
What do I actually do? Look for the composers and works or genres mentioned, try them out…..

A willingness to learn, an insatiable curiosity, especially in the world of fake news and social media, is a more precious principle than ever.
There is a vital humility about it; an innocence and openness. Fear and rejection of the unknown is part of the force of prejudice, which leads to closed, aggressive and narrow minds. Divisiveness. Turn away from it.

[Petrushka]

I have to say that the level of vocabulary needed to follow the forum is , with the exception of specialist music terms obvs, way lower than academic prose (some of which is completely unintelligible ) or indeed the prose used in things like the Times Literary Supplement . It is however more demanding than newspapers.

Academic prose is written for a specialist audience where it would be a given that it would be understood. Most occupations have their own jargon that can be gobbledy-gook for the uninitiated. The Forum is, mostly, centred around classical music and it's not unexpected that those who listen to it will be reasonably well educated, have a fair knowledge of a few languages and of literature both English and foreign. Not to mention a more than passing acquaintance with musical terminology.' history and geography.

All of these subjects are dealt with on Radio 3 in one form or another so it's a mystery to me why some on here are keen to profess their ignorance, ironically at a time when the internet provides everyone with more knowledge than anyone could possibly want, instead of quietly making the effort to broaden whatever knowledge is lacking.

This isn't meant to be patronising. We've all had to go through this sort of process, most of us at a time when the internet didn't exist, and much of it demanded a great deal of effort in reading, listening and, hopefully, understanding.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not you too? I think everyone here tries to express themselves as clearly as possible, even - or especially - when dealing with issues, especially concerning music, that are difficult to put accurately into words. I don't see any deliberate obscurity or "showing off". Some of us put a lot of thought and often some considerable time into making our posts here as clear and precise as we can, and this is the response.

Actually I was talking about myself...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Any sharing or displaying of knowledge (about classical music or recordings, say) could be described as "showing off"; which is not at all to say that is its prime motivation.
Where does sharing end and supposed "showing off" begin? The relishing of language and expression? Would anyone care to delineate such rules?

The ability to share deep and specialised knowledge, specialist and arcane terminology or foreign language quotations, without fear of someone complaining or “feeling threatened” has been one of the principal attractions of this forum since at least 2010 after it reformed, independently of the BBC. Just a few years ago, there were several more contributors here - such as fhg, Roehre - who one would always learn a great deal from, precisely for those reasons.
Most of us enjoyed language in itself; using it, quoting it, learning unusual references. Eloquent, finely-articulated argument.

The idea of complaining wouldn’t have occurred to anyone; we were all enjoying learning from each other too much; some of the debates could get pretty vigorous, but we knew the standards here were high and took our bad moments as they came.

Suppose I went to the recent Electronic Music thread and said “stop going on about this obscure music I don’t like or understand, I bet many others feel the same!”
I would, I hope, get very short shrift.
What do I actually do? Look for the composers and works or genres mentioned, try them out…..

A willingness to learn, an insatiable curiosity, especially in the world of fake news and social media, is a more precious principle than ever.
There is a vital humility about it; an innocence and openness. Fear and rejection of the unknown is part of the force of prejudice, which leads to closed, aggressive and narrow minds. Divisiveness. Turn away from it.

Exactly ! I quite like people showing off. The ones who are good at it earn a fortune.

[jayne lee wilson]

Exactly ! I quite like people showing off. The ones who are good at it earn a fortune.

All points comprehensively and wilfully missed. Trivialisation rules. Over and Out.

[Leinster Lass]

Any sharing or displaying of knowledge (about classical music or recordings, say) could be described as "showing off"; which is not at all to say that is its prime motivation.
Where does sharing end and supposed "showing off" begin? The relishing of language and expression? Would anyone care to delineate such rules?

The ability to share deep and specialised knowledge, specialist and arcane terminology or foreign language quotations, without fear of someone complaining or “feeling threatened” has been one of the principal attractions of this forum since at least 2010 after it reformed, independently of the BBC. Just a few years ago, there were several more contributors here - such as fhg, Roehre - who one would always learn a great deal from, precisely for those reasons.
Most of us enjoyed language in itself; using it, quoting it, learning unusual references. Eloquent, finely-articulated argument.

The idea of complaining wouldn’t have occurred to anyone; we were all enjoying learning from each other too much; some of the debates could get pretty vigorous, but we knew the standards here were high and took our bad moments as they came. You had to raise your game to be a part of it.

Suppose I went to the recent Electronic Music thread and said “stop going on about this obscure music I don’t like or understand, I bet many others feel the same!”
I would, I hope, get very short shrift.
What do I actually do? Look for the composers and works or genres mentioned, try them out…..

A willingness to learn, an insatiable curiosity, especially in the world of fake news and social media, is a more precious principle than ever.
There is a vital humility about it; an innocence and openness. Fear and rejection of the unknown is part of the force of prejudice, which leads to closed, aggressive and narrow minds. Divisiveness. Turn away from it.

You want me to raise my game AND think for myself (something of which I'm apparently incapable?) Am I showing off by saying, for example, 'I like Finzi's music'? I'm far too stupid, but also far too clever, to say anything about electronic music.
(Who won the Big Match, by the way?)

[Leinster Lass]

Not you too? I think everyone here tries to express themselves as clearly as possible, even - or especially - when dealing with issues, especially concerning music, that are difficult to put accurately into words. I don't see any deliberate obscurity or "showing off". Some of us put a lot of thought and often some considerable time into making our posts here as clear and precise as we can, and this is the response.

... and I don't? Perhaps the language in my messages is too simple for some folk! 'Some of us' might be thought by some to be bordering on the patronising.

I DEMAND THE RIGHT TO KEEP THINGS SIMPLE!!!

[french frank]

"His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge ... My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it."

A famous fictional 'ignoramus'. It's easier in some situations to ask a question than in others. I would find it easier to ask something of a colleague in the same field as me - no one knows everything, and we all have stunning gaps even in our specialist knowledge (I confidently assert, without any real evidence but myself). But asking a question on, say, the Choral Evensong board - that would make me feel I was intruding and holding up the flow of discussion. I would just weigh up how much I wanted to know. If not much, why bother. If a lot, quietly skulk around online for the answer.

For the purposes of self preservation, it might also be judicious to consider how a likely request for further knowledge might be received in any given group.

[Leinster Lass]

"His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge ... My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it."

A famous fictional 'ignoramus'. It's easier in some situations to ask a question than in others. I would find it easier to ask something of a colleague in the same field as me - no one knows everything, and we all have stunning gaps even in our specialist knowledge (I confidently assert, without any real evidence but myself). But asking a question on, say, the Choral Evensong board - that would make me feel I was intruding and holding up the flow of discussion. I would just weigh up how much I wanted to know. If not much, why bother. If a lot, quietly skulk around online for the answer.

For the purposes of self preservation, it might also be judicious to consider how a likely request for further knowledge might be received in any given group.

Sound advice for those of us incapable of independent thought. I shall immediately order a copy of 'The Child's Guide To Online Skulking'!

[Ein Heldenleben]

All points comprehensively and wilfully missed. Trivialisation rules. Over and Out.

With respect I have done nothing more than endorse your opening sentence or two and have not responded to the others which is fairly common practice on Internet forums isn’t it ? If you would like me to respond I am perfectly happy to.There is nothing wilful about it - I’m just not that subtle . “Showing-off “ is what just about anyone in the public eye - journalists , columnists, musicians , actors do every day and I don’t have a problem with it - in fact I’ve even encouraged them by paying for it.

[richardfinegold]

"His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge ... My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it."

A famous fictional 'ignoramus'. It's easier in some situations to ask a question than in others. I would find it easier to ask something of a colleague in the same field as me - no one knows everything, and we all have stunning gaps even in our specialist knowledge (I confidently assert, without any real evidence but myself). But asking a question on, say, the Choral Evensong board - that would make me feel I was intruding and holding up the flow of discussion. I would just weigh up how much I wanted to know. If not much, why bother. If a lot, quietly skulk around online for the answer.

For the purposes of self preservation, it might also be judicious to consider how a likely request for further knowledge might be received in any given group.

Elementary, my dear Watson...
Why the angst here? People have also made references to something that might be obscure to some Formustas. If I am interested, sometimes I try to figure it out, but since a lot of this comes from living in a different Continent it defies easy searching and I just ask. Can’t recall anyone getting their underhosen in knots over an inquiry...

[Leinster Lass]

All points comprehensively and wilfully missed. Trivialisation rules. Over and Out.

Wot no acid invective - you PROMISED!

[Leinster Lass]

Yes it probably is showing off. The problem is with words like commodisation* ( the process by which a premium branded good becomes indistinguishable from its competitors as has happened with PC’s for example ) and commodification (the process by which supposedly free things like data , knowledge etc are turned into saleable goods and services) is it takes so long to explain the difference that people rely on either other readers either knowing the meaning or googling it. The problem is that very the relevant wiki entry is often written by academics in a very complex way.
I have to say that the level of vocabulary needed to follow the forum is , with the exception of specialist music terms obvs, way lower than academic prose (some of which is completely unintelligible ) or indeed the prose used in things like the Times Literary Supplement . It is however more demanding than newspapers.

Not a word I ever use cos I can’t spell it ...

More of a problem for some than for others!

[Leinster Lass]

Please, please Leinster Lass - as one who has greatly enjoyed your input into this forum, please re-assure me that all this self-caricaturing on your part is just one big wind-up? Literal-mindedness has not seemed to form any part of your perspective on the various topics you've contributed to, up to this point, and it just doesn't "chime" with the person I would recognise.

Apparently I'm arrogant too!

[Dave2002]

Why the angst here? People have also made references to something that might be obscure to some Formustas. If I am interested, sometimes I try to figure it out, but since a lot of this comes from living in a different Continent it defies easy searching and I just ask. Can’t recall anyone getting their underhosen in knots over an inquiry...

Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones.