The Fountainhead & Atlas shrugged

[Serial_Apologist]

But it wasn't, alas.



There is the future, and there's the here-and-now. Someone has to cope with the here-and-now when governments don't.

That "Yes but we are where we are" has to be the stalest cliché rationale for never getting to the bottom of anything with a view to genuine, as opposed to provisional, change.

[french frank]

That "Yes but we are where we are" has to be the stalest cliché rationale for never getting to the bottom of anything with a view to genuine, as opposed to provisional, change.

It may be a cliché in that it's said over and over again. But it doesn't mean it isn't true - it presents a hurdle that has to be overcome, not ignored.

[eighthobstruction]

Lets have the whole article....https://www.theguardian.com/society/...the-super-rich How do you like that box of apples , spuds, bananas, pomegranits....so easy to evaluate - assimilate - change etc....with a marvellous magic wand....while millions starve/ die etc etc while we wait for the wand to be juggled between all the protagonists....face it, quoting Engels isn't much of a wand....a cloud cuckoo land....academics with the equivalent of computer simulation ....we are where we are created by a human being near you...

[french frank]

we are where we are created by a human being near you...

I do feel that objecting to the fact is a bit like the (alleged) Irishman, when asked how to get somewhere, saying, "Well, I wouldn't start from here." We are where we are. If Bernie Sanders had been elected President, would his first task have been to begin the task of dismantling capitalism and introducing a socialist system?

[eighthobstruction]

I do feel that objecting to the fact is a bit like the (alleged) Irishman, when asked how to get somewhere, saying, "Well, I wouldn't start from here." We are where we are. If Bernie Sanders had been elected President, would his first task have been to begin the task of dismantling capitalism and introducing a socialist system?

I wouldn't be surprised if per capita the money given to the 'Stop the Steal' campaigns (for that is philanthropy too) here there everywhere by nasty/STUPID/disruptive Billionaire was far higher than that given to High School Music programmes....its nonsense not to say that cliche because it means This is where we are, this the starting point....and there will not be one voice, there will be many others saying NO This is where we are....Oh and Harry he's down the road getting a fancy coffee....

[eighthobstruction]

....the guy David Callahan (who I don't think I am denegrating) who Joseph K was quoting has spent his adult life seeking funding from the great and the good, universities etc to get projects like Demos off the ground....their existence is an important temper to the Right-Wing Thinktanks....and that is the way he makes his living....and Inside Philanthropy (which says it takes no funding from people it champions or those it reviles) has a pay wall.... All this IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A COMPLEX ENDLESS GAME OF CHESS

[Joseph K]

I do feel that objecting to the fact is a bit like the (alleged) Irishman, when asked how to get somewhere, saying, "Well, I wouldn't start from here." We are where we are.

You don't say. At what point did you read one of my posts suggesting that we aren't where we are?

If Bernie Sanders had been elected President, would his first task have been to begin the task of dismantling capitalism and introducing a socialist system?

There's plenty of socialism to go about for manufacturing weapons and bailing out bankers, not to mention tax-cuts for the rich and privatisation. I'd suggest distributing that money for the public use - health, education, high-quality social housing, renewable energy etc. basically a Green New Deal instead. Does that concept boggle your mind?

[french frank]

You don't say. At what point did you read one of my posts suggesting that we aren't where we are?

Nowhere, I was referring back to what Serial said in Msg #91 about it being a stale cliché.

There's plenty of socialism to go about for manufacturing weapons and bailing out bankers, not to mention tax-cuts for the rich and privatisation.

What does that mean - there's plenty of socialism to go about for doing those things?

I'd suggest distributing that money for the public use - health, education, high-quality social housing, renewable energy etc. basically a Green New Deal instead. Does that concept boggle your mind?

No, it doesn't boggle my mind. Any Liberal Democrat would agree with you.

[Joseph K]

No, it doesn't boggle my mind. Any Liberal Democrat would agree with you.

You sure about that? Jo Swinson - more Tory than most Tories - in favour of a Green New Deal? The party that along with the Tories created austerity?

The Green New Deal was actually proposed by Labour at the last election.

[Serial_Apologist]

What does that mean - there's plenty of socialism to go about for doing those things?

A reference to the neat line "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor" - the bailing out of the banks in 2008, I think.

[french frank]

You sure about that? Jo Swinson - more Tory than most Tories - in favour of a Green New Deal? The party that along with the Tories created austerity?

We are again getting a little away from Ayn Rand, but on austerity:

"Someone had better call a doctor, because it’s clear the Labour Party are suffering from a bad case of collective amnesia.

In 2010, when Labour were in government, they were planning devastating austerity cuts that the then chancellor Alistair Darling was very clear would be even “tougher and deeper” than Margaret Thatcher in the 80s. Labour might have forgotten that – the rest of us haven’t."

Fortunately (for them), they didn't get elected so didn't have to implement their cuts or deal with the ensuing economic problems.

The Green New Deal was actually proposed by Labour at the last election.

The Liberal Democrats in the coalition had previously introduced a number of green policies which were carefully discarded when they were kicked out after the coalition. But unfortunately (for them), Labour didn't win the election, so weren't able to actually do more than put it in their manifesto as a sign of their earnest intentions in the matter

[eighthobstruction]

You don't say. At what point did you read one of my posts suggesting that we aren't where we are?



There's plenty of socialism to go about for manufacturing weapons and bailing out bankers, not to mention tax-cuts for the rich and privatisation. I'd suggest distributing that money for the public use - health, education, high-quality social housing, renewable energy etc. basically a Green New Deal instead. Does that concept boggle your mind?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzuNJod_o7g.....scarey

[Joseph K]

The Liberal Democrats in the coalition had previously introduced a number of green policies which were carefully discarded when they were kicked out after the coalition.

'Green policies' do not in and of themselves make a Green New Deal I'm afraid.

[french frank]

'Green policies' do not in and of themselves make a Green New Deal I'm afraid.

That is an interesting point of view, JK. On a theoretical, or philosophical, basis, would you say that getting into power and using it to bring in a package of promised 'green policies' is less valuable than promising a raft of green policies and labelling them a 'Green New Deal' but not having to follow up on the promise because you suffered one of the worst Labour defeats in recent history? Real action or promised action? My own view is that that reflects the difference between politicians and theorists (like, if I may mention her name here, Ayn Rand: her theories may have influenced her own behaviour - and those of her fictional creations - but did not change the 'real world').

[Ein Heldenleben]

That is an interesting point of view, JK. On a theoretical, or philosophical, basis, would you say that getting into power and using it to bring in a package of promised 'green policies' is less valuable than promising a raft of green policies and labelling them a 'Green New Deal' but not having to follow up on the promise because you suffered one of the worst Labour defeats in recent history? Real action or promised action? My own view is that that reflects the difference between politicians and theorists (like, if I may mention her name here, Ayn Rand: her theories may have influenced her own behaviour - and those of her fictional creations - but did not change the 'real world').

Do you really think Rand had that little impact ? Apologies for contradicting you but there’s even a wiki entry on her influences . I suspect she has had more impact in the West than any other 20th century fictional author though I’ve never read a word of it. It’s a fascinating list and although many don’t appear well-known many of them are key cultural influencers like Gene Roddenberry creator of Star Trek - a very good example of a series which spreads US values globally. Another influencer is Clarence Thomas . I suspect there are dozens of similar figures in the UK - mainly in politics and think tanks like the IEA and CPS. These bodies have enormous influence .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_influenced_by_Ayn_Rand