The opinion of experts

[french frank]

Not by me they're not! Exactly what did he say?

For the record:

"Brahms is a celebrity; I'm a nobody. And yet, without false modesty, I tell you that I consider myself superior to Brahms. So what would I say to him? If I'm an honest and truthful person, then I would have to tell him this: 'Herr Brahms! I consider you to be a very untalented person, full of pretensions but utterly devoid of creative inspiration. I rate you very poorly and indeed I simply look down upon you. But I need your services, and that's why I've come to you.' If, on the other hand, I'm dishonest and mendacious, then I would tell him quite the opposite. I can do neither the one nor the other."

And then:

"Eduard Hanslick described Tchaikovsky as “surely no ordinary talent, but rather, an inflated one, obsessed with posturing as a man of genius, and lacking all discrimination and taste.”

That's experts for you!

[ardcarp]

Of his [Haydn's] hundred or so symphonies.....

104 is the official number, but Haydn's Sinfonia Concertante is sometimes referred to as his Symphony 105. It's a lovely work with solo parts for violin, cello, oboe and bassoon. Well worth getting to know!

[rauschwerk]

It may well work for other composers, but I seem to recall reading that Britten described Beethoven as 'a sack of potatoes', so Mario should avoid Beethoven (or Britten, perhaps)

True, but what got up Britten's nose as much as anything was L van B's attitude to his art. Britten believed that a composer's job is to be useful to the living, and he could never have said (as Beethoven once did of his Op 59 quartets), "These are not for you but for a later age."

[french frank]

True, but what got up Britten's nose as much as anything was L van B's attitude to his art. Britten believed that a composer's job is to be useful to the living, and he could never have said (as Beethoven once did of his Op 59 quartets), "These are not for you but for a later age."

I'm surprised he said that about the Op 59s. But maybe that was just the start and he meant Op. 59 and everything thereafter.

[french frank]

I may possibly have been something of an 'expert' in the field of patent litigation, but when it comes to music I'm just an enthusiast who's willing and able to share her enthusiasms. I think 'specialist' is a safer and less presumptuous word than 'expert', in the same way that 'intellectual' is seen by some as a less disparaging term than 'academic'.

I've only just read this! Oi! If say I was an academic I'm speaking factually - that was my paid occupation. I don't think I would refer to myself 'an intellectual' as that's less easy to prove and some may disagree. But then, perhaps the rest of the world does use the word 'academic' with disparaging intent

[Bryn]

I'm surprised he said that about the Op 59s. But maybe that was just the start and he meant Op. 59 and everything thereafter.

Perhaps that's why Benjamin Britten did little to advance the compositional process. I recall a 'quote' attributed to Stravinsky by the late Alec Hill (single reed player, nuclear chemist and systems programmer). I have never been able to verify it but the claim was that in response to Britten's War Requiem, Stravinsky reportedly commented: "You wipe a tear from your eye as you note the faulty counterpoint".

[Nick Armstrong]

I find it works reasonably well.

[Roslynmuse]

But then, perhaps the rest of the world does use the word 'academic' with disparaging intent

A lot of executant musicians (and also some composers I know ) seem to view musicologists etc with great mistrust, sadly. Why buy a Barenreiter or Henle edition when you can get a heavily edited score for free via IMSLP...

Not all, though, thank goodness, but there are still plenty out there who disparage 'academic' musicians - and sometimes use the word synonymously with 'intellectual', or at least use both with similar negative implications.

Edit (for clarification, I hope): Barenreiter/ Henle = scholarly edition, aiming to provide a performer with a 'clean' score. The sort of 'heavily edited score' from IMSLP I'm referring to is the one with the abundance of non-composer markings.

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm surprised he said that about the Op 59s. But maybe that was just the start and he meant Op. 59 and everything thereafter.

This is the context of the comment (from the Guardian)

"Beethoven's three "Razumovsky" string quartets left both their first performers and the public shocked and suspicious. The violinist Ignaz Schuppanzigh, whose quartet premiered the Opus 59 works, complained they were unreasonably difficult. After playing the opening solo from the second movement of the first of the three quartets, cellist Bernhard Romberg threw his music to the ground and stamped on it. What sort of sorry substitute for a tune was this? How insulting to give a cellist of his stature such a banal rhythm, the sort of thing anyone could tap out with a pencil! Meanwhile, the violinist Felix Radicati is said to have complained these were "not music".

"They are not for you, but for a later age," Beethoven told his critics."

Memory jogged, I recall that "where the rot set in" was Britten's comment on the later Beethoven, I think specifically the late quartets. Supposedly because (as Rauschwerk implied) they took music away from some notional "average listener", or at least a living one. Obvious problems with such supposition.

[Richard Barrett]

"Brahms is a celebrity; I'm a nobody. And yet, without false modesty, I tell you that I consider myself superior to Brahms. So what would I say to him? If I'm an honest and truthful person, then I would have to tell him this: 'Herr Brahms! I consider you to be a very untalented person, full of pretensions but utterly devoid of creative inspiration. I rate you very poorly and indeed I simply look down upon you. But I need your services, and that's why I've come to you.' If, on the other hand, I'm dishonest and mendacious, then I would tell him quite the opposite. I can do neither the one nor the other."

The interesting point here though is that it says something interesting about Tchaikovsky - that those aspects of Brahms's music which lead many people to enjoy and admire it aren't found enjoyable or admirable by Pyotr Ilyich, because what he's looking for in music is something else, which presumably can be found in his music, which in turn can be illuminating for one's view of both composers, if that makes any sense. To take another example, you can see what Boulez meant when he described Turangalîla as "brothel music", even if you don't agree, which might encourage you to seek and find a refined and subtle kind of sensuality in Boulez's work.

[Richard Barrett]

A lot of executant musicians (and also some composers I know ) seem to view musicologists etc with great mistrust, sadly.

One reason is that there are quite a few musicologists around who seem to prefer the sound of their own voices to the music they're supposedly talking about!

[french frank]

I have never been able to verify it but the claim was that in response to Britten's War Requiem, Stravinsky reportedly commented: "You wipe a tear from your eye as you note the faulty counterpoint".

Several contemporary critics (including, I think, Leopold) expressed the opinion that Mozart had made 'mistakes' in his compositions. People were in two camps - those who recognised him as a genius and those who heard his music as 'too difficult' or not what they were used to. And Mozart said he wrote some parts of his music for 'connoisseurs' and others for the general public, recognising that there were two distinct but overlapping audiences for his work. I don't think he went as far as Beethoven in saying (or thinking) that he was writing for future generations.

[Roslynmuse]

One reason is that there are quite a few musicologists around who seem to prefer the sound of their own voices to the music they're supposedly talking about!

Agreed! And to paraphrase Stravinsky on Turangalila, some of them are happy simply to get through a great deal of paper and ink!

[french frank]

A lot of executant musicians (and also some composers I know ) seem to view musicologists etc with great mistrust, sadly. Why buy a Barenreiter or Henle edition when you can get a heavily edited score for free via IMSLP...

Not all, though, thank goodness, but there are still plenty out there who disparage 'academic' musicians - and sometimes use the word synonymously with 'intellectual', or at least use both with similar negative implications.

Fair enough - when LL compared the various terms 'experts', 'academics', 'intellectuals' and 'specialists' I took them in a more general sense than as referring to music especially. Musicologists are some distance removed from my 'academic specialism', and I wouldn't care to offer an opinion on their usefulness or perniciousness.

[french frank]

The interesting point here though is that it says something interesting about Tchaikovsky - that those aspects of Brahms's music which lead many people to enjoy and admire it aren't found enjoyable or admirable by Pyotr Ilyich, because what he's looking for in music is something else, which presumably can be found in his music, which in turn can be illuminating for one's view of both composers, if that makes any sense.

Well, it does make sense, but isn't that the basis for 'likes' and 'dislikes' anyway? I don't like modern music because it doesn't have what … [Mozart/Tchaikovsky/Beethoven &c &c] have: nice tunes largely based on the major and minor scales? I don't like abstract painting/modern poetry because they don't have recognisable images/proper rhymes and metres. And I can't, intellectually, move forward to get into what these other genres do have that other people seem to enjoy. In PIT's case, why should he [rhetorical]? I think there's a difference between feeling a composer is 'not worth listening to' and being objectively critical of it.