The future of classical music / arts stations

[Ein Heldenleben]

I stand to be corrected here - many people have been listening to R3/The Third for longer than I have. My impression is that the breakfast time programme has always been the least demanding, 'easing' into the day. But I don't remember until recent times that it had extracts from longer works. The pieces tended to be shorter (no 40-minute symphonies), but not the 5-6 minute average that we have now.

I'd take issue with gurnemanz on one thing he said ("friends and relations who do like that approach and who I do not write off as part of the "dumbed down" contingent"): writing off people as dumbed down is not at all what many of us are saying. Programmes aimed at children, which are made 'accessible' for their age group, does not imply that the children are considered a 'dumbed down contingent' by adults. The dissatisfaction is at the consequent loss of something more 'advanced' (for want of a better term) for listeners who want that. Attracting a broader, general audience has entailed removing/reducing/putting on late at night content that will be off-putting to that specific audience.

I thought you might be interested in this completely random selection of a breakfast sequence from October 1976 . It is possibly more demanding fare - complete works or at least musically coherent selections from complete works . I am guessing but there was much more music and much less chit-Chat then. The latter is , as you know cheaper. One big problem that all radio stations in the UK face is that the pay much more per track than streaming services like Amazon and Spotify.


7.05: Overture
Giovanni Gabriell Sonata pian e forte: Canzon primi tont PHILIP JONES BRASS ENSEMBLE conducted by JOHN ELIOT GARDINER
7.9* Paisiello Harpsichord Concerto in C: MARIA TERESA GARATTI I MUSICI
7.31* Verdi Ballet Music (II Trovatore)
MONTE CARLO OPERA ORCHESTRA conducted by ANTONIO DE ALMEIDA gramophone records
Contributors
Unknown: Giovanni Gabriell
Unknown: Philip Jones
Conducted By: John Eliot Gardiner
Unknown: Maria Teresa
Conducted By: Antonio de Almeida
8.00: News

8.05: Morning Concert

Berlioz Overture: King Lear
London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Alexander Gibson
8.19* Poulenc Sinfonietta
The Paris Orchestra, conducted by Georges Pretre
8.47* Ibert Bacchanale
City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Louis Fremaux

(gramophone records)
(Stereo)
Contributors
Musicians: London Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Alexander Gibson
Musicians: The Paris Orchestra
Conductor: Georges Pretre
Musicians: City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Louis Fremaux

Notice that all the musicians get a credit in the RT. Radio 3 has ( pre 12.00 ) to some extent gone the way predicted by Horowitz in Understanding Toscannini - largely classical ‘masterpieces’ , familiar fare eg this morning New World Symphony, Vivaldi’s tedious Mandolin concerto that’s on now. I say largely because interestingly the push for diversity has meant many pieces from largely unknown female and black composers even in the audience driven pre 12.00 slots . That is something that Horowitz didn’t foresee happening.

[french frank]

Radio 3 has ( pre 12.00 ) to some extent gone the way predicted by Horowitz in Understanding Toscannini - largely classical ‘masterpieces’ , familiar fare eg this morning New World Symphony, Vivaldi’s tedious Mandolin concerto that’s on now. I say largely because interestingly the push for diversity has meant many pieces from largely unknown female and black composers even in the audience driven pre 12.00 slots . That is something that Horowitz didn’t foresee happening.

"The Good Old Days!"

I think it's understandable that when R3 is focusing on getting new ('broader') audiences interested in classical music they will regularly play well known, shorter, works and perhaps also mix with them lighter, non classical, music. So "dumbing down" is no more than imposing a mismatch between content and those listeners who want longer, less familiar works. And no timewasting chat. Expressing dissatisaction isn't to be taken as denigrating those who like, even prefer, the newer style; merely disappointment at having had something taken away that we enjoyed, on the grounds that we're a social minority, destined now presumably to become a station minority too.

As for that 'push for diversity' that would not at all have been unwelcome in less 'socially aware' times. If I were controller (i.e. receiving his salary), I would personally fund a researcher to dig further, so that Coleridge-Taylor, the Chevalier de Saint Georges, Louise Farrenc, Amy Beach, Clara Schumann didn't become established as some sort of "new canon" because they're the new discoveries played most often.

Nick mentioned Víkingur Ólafsson's current short series on at 11pm - a musician talking for an hour (and for three programmes) on a single musical theme. Compare with the regular weekly lunchtime offerings of This Classical Life or Inside Music, both musicians talking about music, one at least of which seems occasionally to exhibit insights that go beyond "Here are Some of My Favourite Pieces", depending on the presenter.

[cloughie]

I thought you might be interested in this completely random selection of a breakfast sequence from October 1976 . It is possibly more demanding fare - complete works or at least musically coherent selections from complete works . I am guessing but there was much more music and much less chit-Chat then. The latter is , as you know cheaper. One big problem that all radio stations in the UK face is that the pay much more per track than streaming services like Amazon and Spotify.


7.05: Overture
Giovanni Gabriell Sonata pian e forte: Canzon primi tont PHILIP JONES BRASS ENSEMBLE conducted by JOHN ELIOT GARDINER
7.9* Paisiello Harpsichord Concerto in C: MARIA TERESA GARATTI I MUSICI
7.31* Verdi Ballet Music (II Trovatore)
MONTE CARLO OPERA ORCHESTRA conducted by ANTONIO DE ALMEIDA gramophone records
Contributors
Unknown: Giovanni Gabriell
Unknown: Philip Jones
Conducted By: John Eliot Gardiner
Unknown: Maria Teresa
Conducted By: Antonio de Almeida
8.00: News

8.05: Morning Concert

Berlioz Overture: King Lear
London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Alexander Gibson
8.19* Poulenc Sinfonietta
The Paris Orchestra, conducted by Georges Pretre
8.47* Ibert Bacchanale
City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Louis Fremaux

(gramophone records)
(Stereo)
Contributors
Musicians: London Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Alexander Gibson
Musicians: The Paris Orchestra
Conductor: Georges Pretre
Musicians: City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Conductor: Louis Fremaux

Notice that all the musicians get a credit in the RT. Radio 3 has ( pre 12.00 ) to some extent gone the way predicted by Horowitz in Understanding Toscannini - largely classical ‘masterpieces’ , familiar fare eg this morning New World Symphony, Vivaldi’s tedious Mandolin concerto that’s on now. I say largely because interestingly the push for diversity has meant many pieces from largely unknown female and black composers even in the audience driven pre 12.00 slots . That is something that Horowitz didn’t foresee happening.

Those were the days my friend, why did they have to end!

[Serial_Apologist]

Those were the days my friend, why did they have to end!

Narrowcasting - as french frank says elsewhere - specially thought up to promulgate and perpetuate narrowthinking and narrowfeeling.

[gurnemanz]

Those were the days my friend, why did they have to end!

I very much take your point re Breakfast, but generally speaking I have come to mistrust the good old days argument. Many years ago when working in Germany I remember someone using a phrase which has stuck with me: "Die Erinnerung verklärt". Not easy to translate but something like "memory transfigures". In personal experience over the years I have evermore come to the insight that memory is unreliable and tends to distort. We sometimes tend to remember mainly the good bits.

I remember (probably unreliably) quite a lot about the good old Radio 3/Third Programme which as a young person at the time I did not find that appealing: crappy medium wave reception, limited broadcasting time sometimes with interruptions for cricket commentary, a stuffy, po-faced presentation style (I had recently moved across from Kenny Everett on pirate radio), some talk material which was frankly obscure or dull. ... much though I loved Hans Keller.

[french frank]

I very much take your point re Breakfast, but generally speaking I have come to mistrust the good old days argument.

I think it would very odd to think that everything was better in the days before 'progress' but equally odd to think that nothing was better. One has to be clear exactly what was 'better' then (accepting that others might disagree on particular points); and exactly also what is 'better' now. But 'stuffy and po-faced' is probably what I should prefer, and confining presenter input to the matter in hand - the music - would certainly mutatis mutandis (such as the outdated accents that are never heard now) suit me better. But then even the thought of Kenny Everett on pirate radio fills me with a certain horror .

I think that odd accents or audio quality are red herrings, undisputed straw men arguments; though on the first there are non-professional broadcasters who to my ear have 'better' broadcasting voices than the professionals (the currently discussed Víkingur Ólafsson being one). I'd lay a bet that in 50 years time people will mock today's broadcaster voices just as now people mock those of the past.

And one man's 'obscure and dull' is another man's absorbingly interesting.

[cloughie]

I very much take your point re Breakfast, but generally speaking I have come to mistrust the good old days argument. Many years ago when working in Germany I remember someone using a phrase which has stuck with me: "Die Erinnerung verklärt". Not easy to translate but something like "memory transfigures". In personal experience over the years I have evermore come to the insight that memory is unreliable and tends to distort. We sometimes tend to remember mainly the good bits.

I remember (probably unreliably) quite a lot about the good old Radio 3/Third Programme which as a young person at the time I did not find that appealing: crappy medium wave reception, limited broadcasting time sometimes with interruptions for cricket commentary, a stuffy, po-faced presentation style (I had recently moved across from Kenny Everett on pirate radio), some talk material which was frankly obscure or dull. ... much though I loved Hans Keller.

I would agree that a lot of things in life have got better over the years - retirement and the activities it has brought are mostly better despite the aches and creaks, than having to go out to work. However the music output on Radio 3 I don't think has improved and most of the pop output on local radio and Radio 2 is what Herman’s Hermits once sang about ‘A must to avoid’ and I do wish that in the rush to appeal to a younger audience they had thought for at least a moment about not turning off older listeners.

[Leinster Lass]

I would agree that a lot of things in life have got better over the years - retirement and the activities it has brought are mostly better despite the aches and creaks, than having to go out to work. However the music output on Radio 3 I don't think has improved and most of the pop output on local radio and Radio 2 is what Herman’s Hermits once sang about ‘A must to avoid’ and I do wish that in the rush to appeal to a younger audience they had thought for at least a moment about not turning off older listeners.

Presumably they assume that The Young Ones can can be encouraged to become regular old(er) listeners while old(er) listeners remain loyal and do Not Fade Away.

[cloughie]

Presumably they assume that The Young Ones can can be encouraged to become regular old(er) listeners while old(er) listeners remain loyal and do Not Fade Away.

Talking about their generation - I wonder how many regular R2 and local radio late 40 and 50 somethings who are really enjoying the current overkill on 80s music but will be disgruntled in 20 years time when they stop playing their fayre on the airwaves!

[Edgy 2]

I very much take your point re Breakfast, but generally speaking I have come to mistrust the good old days argument. Many years ago when working in Germany I remember someone using a phrase which has stuck with me: "Die Erinnerung verklärt". Not easy to translate but something like "memory transfigures". In personal experience over the years I have evermore come to the insight that memory is unreliable and tends to distort. We sometimes tend to remember mainly the good bits.

I remember (probably unreliably) quite a lot about the good old Radio 3/Third Programme which as a young person at the time I did not find that appealing: crappy medium wave reception, limited broadcasting time sometimes with interruptions for cricket commentary, a stuffy, po-faced presentation style (I had recently moved across from Kenny Everett on pirate radio), some talk material which was frankly obscure or dull. ... much though I loved Hans Keller.

Each to their own I suppose.
I started listening to Radio 3 in the 70s,from about age 13/14.
Certainly didn't seem stuffy to me,I couldn't get enough of the station,give me that over huge swathes of the programming nowadays.
Maybe I was dull and stuffy as a teenager so the old Radio 3 suited me

[french frank]

Each to their own I suppose.
I started listening to Radio 3 in the 70s,from about age 13/14.
Certainly didn't seem stuffy to me,I couldn't get enough of the station,give me that over huge swathes of the programming nowadays.

I suspect that however much R3 tries to 'catch up' with popular listening habits, it will always be considered old-fashioned, over formal, boring, by listeners used to listening to the pop stations. It's certainly still the case now, even though we've seen/felt huge changes in the tone and style, that others write the station off as 'stuffy' and, if they haven't learnt to love classical music for whatever reason (no opportunity, disinclination), boring and dull.

If people think that hearing a piece of music they didn't know before constitutes 'education', they have no clue as to how educational R3 used to be.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I listened to the Third/Music/R3 in my teenage years and never found it stuffy at all. In fact I couldn’t get enough of it. Although the medium wave sound was dreadful, it was heavenly once my parents invested in an FM radio.

[kernelbogey]

I listened to the Third/Music/R3 in my teenage years and never found it stuffy at all. In fact I couldn’t get enough of it. Although the medium wave sound was dreadful, it was heavenly once my parents invested in an FM radio.

Pretty much my experience too. Having been introduced to 'classical' music by an older brother, I took in as much as I could - like venturing into the deep end of the pool for the first time after you've learned how to stay afloat and move forward. I think I first entered the musical deep end around 1958-9: IIRC, there was serious music too on the Home Service, for example a lunchtime concert before or after the one o'clock news (frequently under the baton of George Hurst ).

And the Third Programme/Network Three/Radio 3 has/have been responsible for a huge proportion of my musical education.

[french frank]

I took in as much as I could - like venturing into the deep end of the pool for the first time after you've learned how to stay afloat and move forward.

I think that's the key. The awareness that you don't know very much about it, that there's a lot to know - and that you want to know it.

My fear is that by trying to treat Radio 3 as 'just another radio station' (to quote RW), new listeners will listen to it in the same way as they listen to Radio 2, 6 Music - a background that you can tune in and tune out of according to whether something captures your attention, switch over to another station when something isn't interesting. And for those few (they alway were 'those few') willing to 'move forward' there isn't very far to move on R3 these days.

[Richard Barrett]

Each to their own I suppose.
I started listening to Radio 3 in the 70s,from about age 13/14.
Certainly didn't seem stuffy to me,I couldn't get enough of the station,give me that over huge swathes of the programming nowadays.

Same here. I listened to Radio 1 in the morning before going to school and to Radio 3 (selected programmes) in the evening. Different stations, different music, different style of presentation. One person's po-faced and stuffy is another person's self-effacing and informative I suppose. Nowadays of course Radio 3 has its own Kenny Everetts, so all is well with the world.