Goodbyee ....

[MrGongGong]

I'm reminded of the ultimately unsuccessful Sex Pistols prosecution. Still, Never Mind the Orchestras.

reminds me of the Mervyn Stockwood, Malcolm Muggeridge Life of Brian "debate"

[Ein Heldenleben]

This is , by some considerable margin, the politest and most erudite forum I've ever been on. The problem as with emails is tone. What appears witty to one seems brutal and rude to another. That is the pitfall of the written word as opposed to the spoken. It's why Flaubert spent all day on one sentence to get the meaning , tone and emphasis absolutely right. And that's in French - a language so much more precise than English.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think we have one

We have this



Presented as a fact rather than an opinion

"Bad" language ?

Well, there's obviously racist and homophobic language for starters.

I for instance never use the "c***" word, having had it in no uncertain terms drummed into me back in the 1970s that common words for female private parts applied as an insult in describing a person, usually male, are degrading to women, whatever their aetiology. Recently the term seems to have come back into fashion - I have even heard women using it! - and whenever I challenge its use, I relate remembering an incident at school in which one boy threw the "c" word at another, initiating fisticuffs. Following the intervention of one of the masters, another boy was heard exclaiming, "At least c***s are useful!" This was in a pre-feminist era, but it stayed with me.

Why is it always female associated words that are used derogatorily? And if anyone says, well yes, there are male equivalents of "cow" or "bitch" applied to a woman - what about "prick"? - the word clearly doesn't have the same resonances. And "bastard" clearly harks back to a time when to be illegitimate meant to be conceived or born out of wedlock.

[MrGongGong]

Well, there's obviously racist and homophobic language for starters.

I for instance never use the "c***" word, having had it in no uncertain terms drummed into me back in the 1970s that common words for female private parts applied as an insult in describing a person, usually male, are degrading to women, whatever their aetiology. Recently the term seems to have come back into fashion - I have even heard women using it! - and whenever I challenge its use, I relate remembering an incident at school in which one boy threw the "c" word at another, initiating fisticuffs. Following the intervention of one of the masters, another boy was heard exclaiming, "At least c***s are useful!" This was in a pre-feminist era, but it stayed with me.

Indeed

But unlike some posters on the old R3 board, the racists and homophobes seem to have left us (or they are keeping quiet?)

My airport comments were suggesting that there really is no need to announce your departure
it's rather daft to flounce off in a supercilious manner IMV

And (as before when a certain other "member" left) folks doing the whole "please don't go" routine just encourages.

By all means, leave, but as has been said elsewhere

"You're Confusing Me With Someone Who Gives A Sh*t" (am I allowed to say that ?)
If I finally stomp off I expect many people will breathe a sigh of relief... which is fine

[Count Boso]

"Bad" language ?

There is a House Rule which mentions "offensive language" which I take to mean, not principally language the user considers offensive, but language which might offend others, for whatever reason, outside one's own circle of like-minded allies.

A reading of Newman's "The Idea of a University" Discourse 8 sub sect 10 is recommended for those who don't quite understand the concept under discussion.

[teamsaint]

Well, there's obviously racist and homophobic language for starters.

I for instance never use the "c***" word, having had it in no uncertain terms drummed into me back in the 1970s that common words for female private parts applied as an insult in describing a person, usually male, are degrading to women, whatever their aetiology. Recently the term seems to have come back into fashion - I have even heard women using it! - and whenever I challenge its use, I relate remembering an incident at school in which one boy threw the "c" word at another, initiating fisticuffs. Following the intervention of one of the masters, another boy was heard exclaiming, "At least c***s are useful!" This was in a pre-feminist era, but it stayed with me.

Why is it always female associated words that are used derogatorily? And if anyone says, well yes, there are male equivalents of "cow" or "bitch" applied to a woman - what about "prick"? - the word clearly doesn't have the same resonances. And "bastard" clearly harks back to a time when to be illegitimate meant to be conceived or born out of wedlock.

The world has changed S-A, while many of us were otherwise engaged.
The language that I routinely hear in the workplace, is of a kind that was once thought to be reserved for the industrial shop floor and the football terraces.
In some ( professional,predominantly white and middle class ) places it is more or less a badge of honour, and I think that the gender sensitivity in language that you describe is to a considerable extent a thing of the past.

Just read the Guardian for confirmation, really.

[MrGongGong]

A reading of Newman's "The Idea of a University" Discourse 8 is recommended for those who don't quite understand the concept under discussion.

Is that the same Newman (I checked and it IS ) who wrote the famous doggerel poem so beloved of the Elgarians ?

I'm not going there

[eighthobstruction]

Mmmm. There's a technical term which I've not seen for a while - I think from neuro-science.

....oh i know a bit of this and a bit of that....words and concepts....have to use google to properly remember them....

[ahinton]

Is that the same Newman (I checked and it IS ) who wrote the famous doggerel poem so beloved of the Elgarians ?

I'm not going there

I don't know, but "beloved of the Elgarians" deserves to be called into question, for just as many admirers of that composer wouldn't give you tuppence for the doggerel that is Arthur Christopher Benson's Land of hope and glory and which was hopelessly and ingloriously landed upon his P&C 1 (somewhat to his chagrin), some would likewise regard Newman's text for what was to become The dream of Gerontius as woefully unworthy of the music that Elgar came to put to it...

[Count Boso]

I'm not going there

Is that rational? The section I was referring to is often subtitled "The Definition of a Gentleman" and, briefly, it outlines a behaviour in which one is always sympathetically aware of the feelings and sensitivities of others, seeking to avoid offending, annoying, outraging, or in any way make them feel uncomfortable. However, it seems evident that in the online world, far from avoiding such behaviour, it becomes the very reason for engaging with others, something that enhances the enjoyment of the medium.

[MrGongGong]

Is that rational?.

Yes, i've suffered enough

and Mr Hinton is entirely correct IMV

Contrary to received wisdom on the subject I find that in the "online world" and particularly Facebook it is full of people making music, talking about art, talking about food, discussing beekeeping and being supportive of each other... THAT is as "real" as the other bits where folks tear strips off each other.

I think there is a difference of what people think a forum such as this is FOR in the first place.
Which is FINE.

I find I can more or less avoid things like football if I want.

[Bryn]

Mmmm. There's a technical term which I've not seen for a while - I think from neuro-science.

Used to measure them in locusts when the smell grass was wafted towards them. Early results were a right mess due to the copper earthing strip for the very sensitive equipment we were using having been itself stripped from the building by thieves.

[Count Boso]

Yes, i've suffered enough

and Mr Hinton is entirely correct IMV

I'm prepared to admit that he was no poet (the only time I went to a performance of that work I was taken ill and had to be extracted from the auditorium by ambulance men).

Nor is there any disputing that the internet and social media are packed with extraordinary interest and well-informed people - just as this forum is. But the negative behaviour of certain individuals ranges over a scale from unpleasant to horrific. Contempt and scornful behaviour may be enjoyable to those engaging in it, delivered from a lofty 'better-than-thou' pinnacle, but is not as well thought of by the recipients of gratuitous barbs. The way we human beings should treat each other is something on which I agree with Newman, bad poet though he may have been. I have a feeling your contempt for his poetry might extend to his thoughts on kind behaviour.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't know, but "beloved of the Elgarians" deserves to be called into question, for just as many admirers of that composer wouldn't give you tuppence for the doggerel that s Arthur Christopher Benson's Land of hope and glory and which was hopelessly and ingloriously landed upon his P&C 1 (somewhat to his chagrin), some would likewise regard Newman's text for what was to become The dream of Gerontius as woefully unworthy of the music that Elgar came to put to it...

Yes I am one of them. But The Idea Of A University is a key text ...

[MrGongGong]

. I have a feeling your contempt for his poetry might extend to his thoughts on kind behaviour.

I have no opinions on his thoughts on "kind behaviour" (though it's a bit hard to imagine that the Catholic Church is in any position to lecture people on "kind behaviour" !) but I know his poetry is shite.

Much love to you all