Petrol and Diesel Cars 2035

[oddoneout]

Keeping old things working is much more preferable than the constant buying and making of new ones
I'm seriously thinking of getting an old diesel Land Rover and running it on vegetable oil, which @ £1.00 per litre is a good option.

Quite. I seem to remember various audits and such like came to this conclusion in the wake of the farcical 'scrappage' scheme. In this neck of the woods the effect on the secondhand car market made life difficult for those needing cars to get to work - large rural county, poor(to put it politely) public transport. My old cars have never had problems getting through the emissions part of the MOT, and one in particular used to regularly put much newer vehicles to shame in that respect according to the garage. The car I replaced with the Nissan was a very primitive 2000 reg Daihatsu which in the ten years I had it only refused to start once - when double digit frost temperatures froze the fuel lines - and failed the MOT once. I only replaced it because health issues meant I needed such luxuries as power steering and brakes, electric windows, and smoother ride quality.

[Dave2002]

Yup. Old secondhand is all I can afford. I got lucky as a colleague was selling her car, a 2008 Nissan Micra and when I said I would like it she reduced the price so I paid £1400. It was in very good condition, and regularly serviced. If I didn't need it to get to work I probably wouldn't have one at all.

Older second hand cars can be very good value, though they may also present problems. Our cheapest was £35, and it got us round northern France on holiday. It did, however, die on our return, and my attempts at resuscitation proved fruitless. I'm not sure what £35 in 1981 or thereabouts translates to in current £££s. It looks as though it might be around £150, based on http://inflation.iamkate.com/ with a little extrapolation since that site only goes up to 2018. I know someone who bought a car recently for about £1000, and said it was in very good condition, so it is possible.

Whether it is worth keeping old cars going depends on several factors. Sometimes they are just too far gone, as with our Renault Clio, which did great service for us. It was bought as a used car from a dealer, but when it finally went for scrap it was 22 years old. It was no longer water tight, and let in rain, which was a major problem, as it would fill with water if left standing. If they use a lot of fuel it may also be worth retiring them, but otherwise one should remember that the manufacture of cars uses a lot of energy, so keeping a car going even for one year more - provided the fuel consumption hasn't gone sky high - could be a better environmental option than buying a new or even second hand replacement.

This article is interesting - http://energyskeptic.com/2015/how-mu...d-fridley-lbl/
Based on the article, it might take 820 gallons (equivalent) of fuel to make a car for the UK market. To do the calculation, note that it might be necessary to convert from US gallons to UK gallons, based on the figures given in the article. If a typical UK driver (is there such a thing) does 12000 miles per year, and the car has a moderately good fuel consumption rate of 50 mpg, then it would take around 3.5 years for the fuel used in operation to equal that used in production. If the car is driven for 7 years, then a third of the energy used was in the production, while if it lasts for 10 years, this drops to a quarter. Realistically it is not going to drop below 15% for most patterns of lifetime usage.

Note also that one can achieve "better" results, either by using cars more, or by worsening the mpg. Thus a car which does only 20 mpg and is driven for 30,000 miles per year will use more energy in operation than in manufacture in a short time - but this is not at all desirable!

[gradus]

One of the possible problems with old vehicles is the cost of road tax. The old Peugeot van that I use for rough jobs like carrying plants and equipment for gardening costs £260 a year to tax as against some new cars which have zero road tax. Everything changes but I can't see older cars with higher emission ratings getting cheaper to run.

[Constantbee]

I'm as green as can be...but I just foresee problems. Any thoughts?

The range at the affordable end of the EV market wouldn't even be enough to get many of us to hospital appointments, and the length of time it takes to recharge the vehicle won't be popular, cf pay at the pump refuelling which is straight in, straight out. Maybe they ought to be thinking about the town planning implications for rural areas before they start making sweeping, one size fits all decisions. Anyway, there's still a big fire risk from Lithium batteries, and cobalt mining is a nasty business.

[muzzer]

If the Ultra Low Emission Zone goes ahead next year I’ll have to look at this seriously.. I drive very little but have (what is now seen as) an old gas guzzler. I pay handsomely for the privilege (which costs will increase further with the ULEZ), and there is nothing like the power and reassurance of a large engine, but I can’t justify it much longer on moral grounds. It will be a sad day.

[Bryn]

The range at the affordable end of the EV market wouldn't even be enough to get many of us to hospital appointments, and the length of time it takes to recharge the vehicle won't be popular, cf pay at the pump refuelling which is straight in, straight out. Maybe they ought to be thinking about the town planning implications for rural areas before they start making sweeping, one size fits all decisions. Anyway, there's still a big fire risk from Lithium batteries, and cobalt mining is a nasty business.

Standardisation of rechargeable batteries for EVs, combined with an exchange system for fully charged batteries at fuel stations would speed up refueling.

[ahinton]

Standardisation of rechargeable batteries for EVs, combined with an exchange system for fully charged batteries at fuel stations would speed up refueling.

The former will be most welcome; the latter makes excellent sense and will continue to do so as long as recharges continue to take substantially longer than refuelling with petrol or diesel.

[Dave2002]

The range at the affordable end of the EV market wouldn't even be enough to get many of us to hospital appointments, and the length of time it takes to recharge the vehicle won't be popular, cf pay at the pump refuelling which is straight in, straight out. Maybe they ought to be thinking about the town planning implications for rural areas before they start making sweeping, one size fits all decisions. Anyway, there's still a big fire risk from Lithium batteries, and cobalt mining is a nasty business.

I think you're probably right about the pre-owned market - see my posts above. If people are able to afford a new one, or nearly new one (say 1 year old), then I would expect the range of a decent low end car to be at least 150 miles, so unless you live 75 miles or more away from the hospital, it should be feasible. If your hospital (or destination) is around 30 miles, then either consider electric cars, and make sure there are charging points at the destination - hospitals should be able to do this, though whether they will ... or alternatively go for a plug-in hybrid - and there may be some of those available in the sh market.

[oddoneout]

Standardisation of rechargeable batteries for EVs, combined with an exchange system for fully charged batteries at fuel stations would speed up refueling.

I suggested this some time ago - it was not received favourably. Would be nice to think that perhaps times have moved on.
Reading the comments about hospital appointments and recharging reminds me of another issue I raised on another forum, namely 'policing' of recharging parking bays. There was a discussion going about how blue badge spaces are abused(quite apart from the abuse of the badges themselves) and it set me wondering then about how to ensure recharging bays are not misused. I think in some places(other countries?) there are sensors and audio messages for designated bays, but given the hopelessly fragmented and buck-passing way(responsibilities but no funding passed to local authorities) things are done here I don't see anything being put in place before it becomes a real issue.
Out of interest I did a search for charging points in my hometown, which threw up more questions, about the need for such information to be all in one place, how interchangeable are the various points, and how reliable the information.Finding an approximation to a full list involved 3 different websites. There is a point listed in a public carpark which I use frequently - I can say with complete confidence there ain't no such thing there! I have a feeling it may be on the premises of a nearby car-hire firm, but that's not a lot of use, especially if you don't know the town and have got caught up in the one way system which goes past the site.
While we may favour particular petrol/diesel brands it all goes in the same speedy way and does the same job. That isn't(ahem, currently) the case with electric charging as far as I can make out.

[ardcarp]

I wonder how many people living in the countryside have ever seen a recharging point? I've seen two in the county town 25 miles away.

[Dave2002]

I have seen several charging points, and I now live in a fairly rural area. However, I have also seen petrol/diesel cars parked in bays reserved for electric cars, thus making it impossible for drivers of such to recharge. Apparently in some locations this is looked upon sympathetically and the space blockers are moved on, but in others they are not.

[oddoneout]

Re: range and rural areas I was reminded of this

https://www.visitscotland.com/info/tours/tesla-tours-of-the-north-coast-500-895a0716

I read a motoring journalist's account of doing the route some time ago, but the chauffeur driven version rather appeals - delegate the problems!
Actually, it would seem Scotland is doing quite well on the electric car front, and the idea of free charging is appealing - although it would seem Orkney has decided it needs to charge. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49319120

[Dave2002]

Re: range and rural areas I was reminded of this

https://www.visitscotland.com/info/tours/tesla-tours-of-the-north-coast-500-895a0716

I read a motoring journalist's account of doing the route some time ago, but the chauffeur driven version rather appeals - delegate the problems!
Actually, it would seem Scotland is doing quite well on the electric car front, and the idea of free charging is appealing - although it would seem Orkney has decided it needs to charge. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49319120

I wonder how much the chauffeur people charge? Would it be enough to cover the cost of the car in less than 2 years - say?

[Dave2002]

Re: range and rural areas I was reminded of this

https://www.visitscotland.com/info/tours/tesla-tours-of-the-north-coast-500-895a0716

I read a motoring journalist's account of doing the route some time ago, but the chauffeur driven version rather appeals - delegate the problems!
Actually, it would seem Scotland is doing quite well on the electric car front, and the idea of free charging is appealing - although it would seem Orkney has decided it needs to charge. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49319120

I wonder how much they charge to drive around - and if the charges would cover the cost of the car in, say, 2 years. I guess accommodation would also be needed, so could easily be quite pricey, or would need to be booked well in advance. Extending the trips to Edinburgh or Glasgow via (perhaps) the A9 would be tedious - though maybe useful for some. More fun would be to go either towards Aberdeen or Dundee, going via or close to Braemar and Balmoral, though after the NC500 maybe punters would be bored of interesting scenery.

[oddoneout]

I wonder how much they charge to drive around - and if the charges would cover the cost of the car in, say, 2 years. I guess accommodation would also be needed, so could easily be quite pricey, or would need to be booked well in advance. Extending the trips to Edinburgh or Glasgow via (perhaps) the A9 would be tedious - though maybe useful for some. More fun would be to go either towards Aberdeen or Dundee, going via or close to Braemar and Balmoral, though after the NC500 maybe punters would be bored of interesting scenery.

Well, it is intended to be a holiday I think rather than an everyday occurrence, although the company does also do the usual business stuff - airport pick-ups etc. From what I remember of the journalist's account the route and stopovers were fitted to range and charging point constraints and booked as a package.
This is another, presumably cheaper, version of the idea https://www.responsibletravel.com/ho...guide/scotland
When you say cost of the car in 2 years do you mean the company getting its investment back?