An elderly Forumista writes ......

[teamsaint]

I didn't take that too literally! I took it to mean presenters whose main purpose is to sound enthusiastic and jolly - with nothing too heavy. Apparently, we're not allowed to mention names. Some people like 'enthusiasm'. I'm not keen because (am I a cynic? yes) I think it's just another act and that as soon as they're off air they go back to being normal human beings. It's false, all designed to have a particular response in the listener. Hidden persuasion: enthusiasm begets enthusiasm. I can decide for myself what I want to enthuse about. Isn't it somewhat alienating to hear people enthusing/gushing about something which then leaves you cold?

I think there's a natural wish for the music that we really enjoy to be enjoyed and appreciated by others, now and in times to come. But very little popular music is like that - it catches the spirit of the times, is hugely popular, and then the mobile vulgus moves on. The recording industry has altered that to a degree, but not entirely. Classical musics, it seems to me, are rare in surviving for centuries. Being written down was/is the equivalent of recording, whereas the contemporary popular music was forgotten (except where classical musicians used and transformed it). Jazz, on the other hand, is a different phenomenon. All just my thoughts.

But most classical music lies dormant in libraries. The stuff available in any way to performers or listeners is the tip of an iceberg.
The internet age has changed everything for the recorded ( pop) music of the last 75 years, because the recordings are in very many cases now available to a wide range of listeners, in a way that they weren't even on release. There are many youtube videos of records pressed the hundreds rather than thousands which are easy to access.
Most pop is ephemeral in some ways , but then so is most classical music,even ( especially ?!) high profile stuff such as Proms premieres.

[Andy Freude]

But most classical music lies dormant in libraries. The stuff available in any way to performers or listeners is the tip of an iceberg.

It's what you might expect, given the quantity composed over 800 years. But they will be uncovered as long as there are people eager to disinter them.

The internet age has changed everything for the recorded ( pop) music of the last 75 years, because the recordings are in very many cases now available to a wide range of listeners, in a way that they weren't even on release. There are many youtube videos of records pressed the hundreds rather than thousands which are easy to access.

The point, I think, was made that people access them easily if they are already looking for them. Otherwise it's serendipity - little better than them lying dormant in libraries. Digging out manuscripts and making performable editions for small audiences may be more rewarding than digging out forgotten recordings and presenting them to rather larger audiences.

[teamsaint]

It's what you might expect, given the quantity composed over 800 years. But they will be uncovered as long as there are people eager to disinter them.



The point, I think, was made that people access them easily if they are already looking for them. Otherwise it's serendipity - little better than them lying dormant in libraries. Digging out manuscripts and making performable editions for small audiences may be more rewarding than digging out forgotten recordings and presenting them to rather larger audiences.

Not necessarily though . People share, follow, enthuse, rediscover. I can and do share music (with people of different generations) from decades ago that I found it hard to access when it was new.

Digging out old manuscripts and making performable editions is and is likely to remain a very niche, if no doubt rewarding activity.

[Andy Freude]

I can and do share music (with people of different generations) from decades ago that I found it hard to access when it was new.

And that is good. Especially if all are sharing Great American Songbook, classical, classical-contemporary and other musics set to have a diminishing audience. And as long as your group of friends and relations is replicated in other groups all sharing Great American Songbook, classical, classical-contemporary and other musics set to have a diminishing audience. My hunch is that it will tend to focus on contemporary (i.e. largely 20th c. for now) popular as far as most such sharing groups are concerned - because that reflects the trend of changing tastes.

[Serial_Apologist]

At the risk of sounding pretentious, I would say that the music and performances which are the subject of this thread are part of our musical heritage, and deserve to be heard more widely, if only to allow people who may be unfamiliar with them to pass judgment on them. I'm willing to bet that some would find them rewarding and enjoyable. If I may offer just a couple of examples of the delights on offer:
* The sheer artistry of Benny Goodman, both in small groups and leading his big band (not forgetting Mozart's Clarinet Concerto and Bartok's 'Contrasts'). One of the most magical moments in 20th century music has to be Jess Stacy's contribution to 'Sing, Sing, Sing' at the famous Carnegie Hall concert.
* Ella Fitzgerald's way with lyrics.
Many years ago, I was chatting to the proprietor of the 'Discurio' record shop in Mayfair and asked him to explain the outstanding musicality of the dance bands. 'They were playing for their families and probably for their lives', he said.

To be fair to Radio 3, there is every chance still to hear top 1930s Swing on Jazz Record Requests - an indication of the fact that big bands have long slipped into this narrower musical category than was arguably the case when the music was current.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wonder, too - Music from the Big Band era used to feature frequently on Strictly Come Dancing, one of the Beeb's most popular programmes. Wouldn't that peek the interest of at least some listeners, prompting them to find out more about the original artists who created and recorded the Music?

[vinteuil]

I wonder, too - Music from the Big Band era used to feature frequently on Strictly Come Dancing, one of the Beeb's most popular programmes. Wouldn't that peek the interest of at least some listeners, prompting them to find out more about the original artists who created and recorded the Music?

... it might pique their interest, perhaps

.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I should've stayed in bed this morning.

[Serial_Apologist]

I should've stayed in bed this morning.

Oh it was just one of your peekadilloes, ferney!

For a serious answer however, , I wouldn't imagine Strictly and similar such programmes, in which the music is very much background adjunct rather than central to the spectacle, would raise much interest in big bands.

[eighthobstruction]

....you [all] are very nostalgic....i remember cringing and being bored hoping that bad bad music went away....not the music you lot like [neigh ]honour....obviously....[proper real proper proper big bands not included in my minor critique....]

[Andy Freude]

I wouldn't imagine Strictly and similar such programmes, in which the music is very much background adjunct rather than central to the spectacle, would raise much interest in big bands.

A bit of a dilemma. I feel attention needs to be drawn, specifically, to what is being played: eg This programe is introducing you to some classical music. Which will also be enough for many people to turn off instantly. Do you hope that just hearing a snatch will be enough to excite interest of a few, or do you think that anyone who turns off at the very thought of classical music won't be interested anyway, so nothing lost?

[StephenMcK]

Great American Songbook, classical, classical-contemporary and other musics set to have a diminishing audience.

You see, I never buy the argument ... 'well, the audience isn't there for that kind of thing, anymore'. In recent times we've had the likes of Robbie Williams and Michael Buble come along and do entire GASB albums and they've sold in great quantities.

Recall also how Dennis Potter's 'Pennies From Heaven' brought about a tremendous revival of interest in the recordings of the old dance bands. Or indeed, in a slightly cheesier context, the Austin Powers inspired easy-listening craze which got vinyl back onto the turntables.

The Beeb was once full of producers making programmes for themselves essentially. My fifteen year career in the biz was entirely about steering the ship towards the places I wanted to go. It's what makes for good programming. Build it and they will come.

On the other hand, give the people what they think they want and you're in a race to the lowest common denominator and I feel sorry for production companies that they are having to engage with the commissioning process not in a spirit of 'here's something really good' but 'here's what we think you'll buy'.

[Serial_Apologist]

You see, I never buy the argument ... 'well, the audience isn't there for that kind of thing, anymore'. In recent times we've had the likes of Robbie Williams and Michael Buble come along and do entire GASB albums and they've sold in great quantities.

Recall also how Dennis Potter's 'Pennies From Heaven' brought about a tremendous revival of interest in the recordings of the old dance bands. Or indeed, in a slightly cheesier context, the Austin Powers inspired easy-listening craze which got vinyl back onto the turntables.

The Beeb was once full of producers making programmes for themselves essentially. My fifteen year career in the biz was entirely about steering the ship towards the places I wanted to go. It's what makes for good programming. Build it and they will come.

On the other hand, give the people what they think they want and you're in a race to the lowest common denominator and I feel sorry for production companies that they are having to engage with the commissioning process not in a spirit of 'here's something really good' but 'here's what we think you'll buy'.

I very much agree with the bit I've highlighted in what you said, Stephen. There was a lot I didn't much like in what John Peel would broadcast in the early 70s, nevertheless he set the tone in terms of broadening popular tastes by raising listener expectations; and he never talked down to his audience. The way I understand things is that tastes are deliberately dumbed down as part of a cultural package designed in the hope and ultimate intention of confirming that the ordinary Joe and Josephine shouldn't think too much about what they are led to consume, or they might start thinking about and questioning other aspects of modern living, and consumerism in particular.

[LMcD]

To be fair to Radio 3, there is every chance still to hear top 1930s Swing on Jazz Record Requests - an indication of the fact that big bands have long slipped into this narrower musical category than was arguably the case when the music was current.

I never miss JRR - and the icing on the cake is the presenter!

[Serial_Apologist]

I never miss JRR - and the icing on the cake is the presenter!

Oh well, we've had our disagreements, all of us, with Alyn, on this forum over the years. But I have to say that for a musician coming out of a particular area of jazz, I have a lot of respect for Alyn's broadminded tastes, as well as his breadth and depth of knowledge, and the courteousness he always observes when presenting requests, and, on other programmes such as Jazz Library, interviewing subjects from the widest range of music imaginable.