A Lone Nut in Norway

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

an interesting point about how many people in europe share Breivik's ideas, but not his action

[scottycelt]

It hasn't taken long for an expert to state on BBC news that the perpetrator of these appalling crimes is not mentally ill.

For once, I tend to side with the 'expert', though that naturally is my own hunch as I'm not myself a psychiatrist ...

This was one carefully and expertly laid plan which, if conceived and executed by a sole killer, was quite extraordinary, however evil and appalling the act.

The victims targeted in both cases were members of the ruling Labour Party and it's youth wing. No others appear to have been deliberately targeted including the police themselves.

All the initial evidence points to a political and racial motive for mass murder, similar to some of the atrocities committed in pre-war Germany in the Thirties.

If this murderous political thug is 'mentally ill', I'd hate to contemplate the even worse carnage he might well have wrought if he were 'sane' ..

[Serial_Apologist]

It is still argued as to whether psychopathology constitutes a mental illness. And whether or not it does, psychopaths have been known for long-term planning their actions.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

assuming that the legal definition of insanity in Norway is the incapacity to distinguish right from wrong the individual responsible clearly demonstrates that he knows it is wrong, that is why he did it ..... a sane monster offering his own martyrdom to his obsessions .... i would not expect his personality, background etc to offer any plausible account of his actions since many will share similar traits and experiences without contemplating such a course of action ..... it is the compulsion of the thought process and the direction in which it leads that gives a simple and direct line to murder on this scale ... he is a hero in his own eyes, and distressingly so in the eyes of many other individuals .... this is what the term fanatic means .... we can all in our different ways show such single minded and narrow focus over years [eg to jazz or Mahler] ... his perverse ideology is the explanation ... every now and then there will be one such, just as in the USA there will be someone who turns a gun on his ex-colleagues or his fellow students [easy access to guns does not help!] while tens and hundreds of other redundant or slighted people will nurse their grudges noisily or in silence but not murderously ... killing other people on this scale is not unknown in many different circumstances, some of which are considered legitimate ...or accidental and without blame [collateral damage anyone] ... the perpetrator in Norway crossed the murder line but that is not exceptional ... and would likely do so again, throwing away the key to his cell is the least that could be done ... but he is not insane and his actions, as repulsive as they are, were 'rational' and pursued in a cause

[Serial_Apologist]

Hmm I'm not sure this man's actions, mass killing on behalf of an ideology, are any more rational than those of a classic murderer who kills out of revenge. Outside the remit of this thread, but, rational; what does it mean?

[StephenO]

this is what the term fanatic means .... we can all in our different ways show such single minded and narrow focus over years [eg to jazz or Mahler]

However single minded or narrowly focused one's devotion to a particular composer or a musical genre might be it can't possibly equate with Breivik's views and even less with his actions.

just as in the USA there will be someone who turns a gun on his ex-colleagues or his fellow students [easy access to guns does not help!]

Any killings, anywhere, will always be the cause of deep sorrow and regret. The fact that these murders took place in peaceful, liberal, egalitarian Norway only adds to the shock.

but he is not insane and his actions, as repulsive as they are, were 'rational' and pursued in a cause

Perhaps not insane in a clinical sense but his actions were hardly those of a sane person. If they seemed rational to him, that surely reinforces any diagnosis that he's mentally ill.

[Mary Chambers]

I'd have thought that anyone who thinks killing a lot of people solves any problem is mentally ill in some way - unless you think killing people is 'normal'.

[scottycelt]

Getting back to 'insanity', I always understood this is a term to describe a person who is so mentally disturbed that they don't know what they are doing and is therefore not 'responsible' for his/her actions.

It already seems pretty clear that this mass murderer not only knew exactly what he was doing, but had the cunning and intelligence to pre-plan his vile atrocities to the most meticulous degree.

I've never really believed (unlike so many others), for example, that Adolf Hitler was 'mad' ... in my opinion, he was simply horribly evil and cruel.

Ditto this thug ...

[mercia]

his actions ...........were .......... pursued in a cause

it must be a disgustingly twisted cause that requires cold-blooded mass murder

[StephenO]

I've never really believed (unlike so many others), for example, that Adolf Hitler was 'mad' ... in my opinion, he was simply horribly evil and cruel.

Ditto this thug ...

But surely when someone reaches that level of evil and cruelty they've, almost by definition, descended into insanity.

[Frances_iom]

it must be a disgustingly twisted cause that requires cold-blooded mass murder

have you looked at the old testament recently ?

have you looked at the history of the English in Ireland ?

... the list goes on + on - All nations have proved capable of deciding that the 'other' is better eliminated

[scottycelt]

But surely when someone reaches that level of evil and cruelty they've, almost by definition, descended into insanity.

No, why?

Of course, to any person with even just a shred of decency and common humanity, such actions are simply unfathomable so they immediately pin the label of 'mad' and 'insane' onto the perpetrator.

Whilst that may be understandable in the aftermath of such recent grotesque horror, we can often overlook the fact that there are some pretty nasty people around who are intent on doing others harm, even murder, and who are in full control of their mental faculties and are, frankly, just plain evil ...

[mercia]

Professor Coid offers a view

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14275981

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well the prof is plausible but has no clinical evidence, however the most likely disorder he points to is a paranoid delusional psychosis .... but the manifesto and planning are not too like the "voice impelled" psychosis of those disturbed souls who stick knives in perfect strangers on the underground

the parallel is much more a Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao or Pol Pot, people must die to fulfil ideology .... this guy lacked a following, but may be trying to create one ...

[Mandryka]

From what I've read, I'm forming the opinion that, as a right-winger in a left-of-centre country, he probably felt marginalised/disenfranchised. I believe he was once part of the principal rightist Party but left it, disillusioned.

It can't be emphaises too strongly how out on a limb right-wingers are in Scandinavia: pretty much the reverse of the situation in the UK/France.

The worry I have is that this incident will encourage Norway to go down the authoritarian path pursued by Holland since the murder of Pim Fortuyn.