A Lone Nut in Norway

[Guest]

A lot of hysterical nonsense being talked in the British media at the moment.

I don't believe for a moment that Friday's events heralds a 'new age' for Norway, a country that rarely makes the international headlines because nothing much of great import happens there.

Just as the assassination of Olaf Palme made little difference to Swedish national life in the long run, I think (and hope), it will be business as usual for the Norwegians from tomorrow onwards.

The Scandinavians are not a hysterical people and we would do well to learn by their example.

[amateur51]

Do we know that he is a 'nut' or are you making assumptions?

Speaking as someone who has problems with depression, I find your rather flippant use of the demotic here rather disconcerting.

[Donnie Essen]

Don't know about this 'new age' business. Haven't read that line particularly. But then I haven't read everything.

Don't know about 'business as usual' either. Perhaps for the ordinary folk there, it will be. But the state there will likely have to look at their intelligence and security and whatnot. I doubt that guy would've been under the radar here in the UK. There's online bravado and blabberings, and then there's 1500 page manifestos and the like. Too much.

We can call him a 'lone nut'. But he keeps getting referred to around as a lunatic and insane n' all. That ain't proven. He simply held extreme ideological beliefs, views that many folk kinda agree with in a more moderate sense, without going to such extremes. Those political views don't exist in a vacuum.

RIP to all of 'em.

[Lateralthinking1]

The deaths in Norway are absolutely tragic. I haven't wanted to comment because we don't have the full facts.

What is clear is that it is always harder for a country when a situation of this kind is largely unprecedented. This is probably particularly true when it is one that is closely associated in the past with peace initiatives. However, talk of a change in its character is likely to be misplaced. 1972, the Munich Olympics - Germany did not fall apart.

Islam was again jumped on and this is likely to be wrong. The ability of Islamic fundamentalists to terrorize has almost certainly been over-emphasised in the past decade, notwithstanding the dreadful atrocities that have taken place. Who knows the extent of their motivation? I doubt though that in practical terms most have capabilities.

I was surprised that Norway had Labour youth camps. On paper, they sound all to the good. Maybe we should have something like them here. The alternative argument is that the politicisation of youth in that way has echoes of less democratic regimes. Perhaps a cracked mind could confuse those associations.

The profile of the main suspect seems to be similar to those who have carried out similar atrocities in the States. Each has a stronger sense of morality than the vast majority but gets it all diabolically wrong with the most awful consequences.

When you think of the millions of people in these countries and the extent of upset, not to mention the aberrant behaviour, I am always surprised that this doesn't happen more often. But as I say we need to hear more to know what was really happening to the extent that anyone will be able to fully comprehend it.

[Nick Armstrong]

What a pity this thread started with mere truculent polemic about the British media, rather than by expressing nothing but immense sympathy for the victims, the survivors, their families and friends. As I have said elsewhere, the scale of the trauma and grief is unimaginable. I can't really think about anything else in connection with this hideous event. Who cares what "the British media" are saying? Better perhaps to do some thinking about the human realities, and how they dwarf other petty inconveniences and annoyances.

[Mahlerei]

Apparently they've arrested several people in connection with these atrocities. My guess is that he was not acting alone, and there are bound to be others who share his repellent views.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

[Richard Tarleton]

I think (and hope), it will be business as usual for the Norwegians from tomorrow onwards.

The population of Norway is (I learnt yesterday) about 5 million. There were 90 or so casualties on the island, whose families and friends will be deeply affected. Of the 500 or so survivors who experienced immediate and prolonged terror, a large number may well suffer from some sort of psychological consequences. Their families will be deeply affected. You are already looking potentially at thousands of people who will be directly affected in some way. Given that the youngsters on the island came from across the country, the repercussions of this event could well be widespread and prolonged. I'd be very surprised if it were business as usual from tomorrow.

[Mandryka]

I always feel that expressions of sympathy on occasions like this are a bit pointless, especially if you don't know the people concerned.

I think you can take it as read that I agree with the majority view that this is a horrendous event - what I should (with hindsight) have made clearer that I was attempting to praise the quiet stoicism of the Norwegian people and hoping that this event will not move them to reject the 'open society' that they have enjoyed for so many years and which is so admired by (mch of) the rest of the world.

The protagonist here seems to have been an extreme right-winger who felt threatened by multiculralism. Strange, as on my visits to Norway, I've seen very little evidence of muliticulturalism: the only non-white I met there was a gravedigger who directed me to Henrik Ibsen's tomb (with the words:'Henrik? He's over there.')

Amateur_51: sorry if you took offence, but it would never occur to me to describe depressives as 'nuts'.

[rodney_h_d]

It hasn't taken long for an expert to state on BBC news that the perpetrator of these appalling crimes is not mentally ill.

Well - that may be what's taught at medical schools, but to the man in the street talking English rather than medico babble he clearly is mad - a deranged psychopath.

[ahinton]

The perpetrator - who is now said to have been working alone - was areested by the Norwegian police and will appear in court for the first time today to begin to answer for what he has done. It would be hard to imagine such a response from the relevant authorities had the event occurred in America, where armed forces and/or police kee-jerk reactions would be shoot to kill, as the killing of bin Laden and the responses to the various mass killings in US have demonstrated. My response to the event of three days ago is as sympathetic as anyone's, but it is also good to see that the response of Norway's police has been to arrest the perpetrator and bring him to face justice. One hopes that lessons will be learnt as a result, just as one might hope (albeit no doubt vainly) that America might learn something from the virtues of adopting this approach.

[Nick Armstrong]

I gather that he was remarkably compliant immediately the authorities arrived, surrendering instantly even though still fully armed etc. Even the Americans might have taken him alive in those circumstances.

He seems to want to use the criminal hearings as a platform for the same 'beliefs' as prompted his actions. One learns that the Norwegians understandably wish the courts and media there to frustrate this opportunity by keeping the proceedings behind closed doors. It will be interesting to see what approach the judge adopts.

Difficult one, this. I instinctively err on the side of the hearings being open so that it is plain for all to see how deranged he and his beliefs are - but the insatiable media are likely to make such a feeding frenzy of the whole affair that I can fully see arguments the other way.

[mercia]

It hasn't taken long for an expert to state on BBC news that the perpetrator of these appalling crimes is not mentally ill.

I've heard another expert (a clinical psychologist) say Breivik is definitely a psychopath on the evidence of having read his 1500-page "manifesto" which apparently gives a lot of biographical information. I understand the maximum sentence for any crime in Norway is 21 years.

[french frank]

I understand the maximum sentence for any crime in Norway is 21 years.

Unless, according to the BBC news site, they are considered a continuing danger to the public. Someone who admits to having killed almost 100 people (and probably more) yet denies 'criminal responsibility' might be considered such a danger.

[kernelbogey]

[....] I think (and hope), it will be business as usual for the Norwegians from tomorrow onwards. [....]

From the Guardian website:

Mark Townsend tweets the extraordinary reaction of the Norwegians he's spoken to:
One striking aspect is that of dozens of locals, including survivors from island, I've met not one has condemned Breivik. Tolerance prevails

10.34am: Mark Townsend sends this moving dispatch from the Norwegian capital:

Huge crowd beginning to assemble in central Oslo ahead of a minute's silence in memory of the dead. Fleet of ambulance crews just arrived and laid red roses on the field of flowers that continues to grow outside the city's cathedral. The square of flowers is at least 30m wide.

"I never thought I'd see anything like this in Norway," said Tove Baust, 72, who had travelled an hour by bus to pay her respects.

Wiping her eyes, she added: "It's very emotional to see the people gathered here."

Many among the crowd are holding hands, some are sobbing as they lay wreaths.