Fun and games with ballot papers

[Bella Kemp]

We certainly need a fairer voting system - if this meant permanently hung parliaments, these would at least force parties into coalitions, which would be far more truly representative of the country as a whole.
Talking of fun and games with ballot papers did any other forum members 'spoil' their paper? Utterly unable to vote Labour or Tory (in a marginal) I thought to offer the counters a poem. I like to think they took a moment to share and appreciate it, but am willing to reflect that perhaps they didn't. The prize of an emoticon to anyone who guesses what it was (hint: it's been quoted on this forum before and pretty much sums up the state we're in and was too long for me to quote it in its entirety).

[teamsaint]

Public opinion chimes with much of what was in the Labour manifesto, if you look at polls (which I have). As Burning Dog states, many people were/are misinformed about Corbyn, who has never supported the IRA, who is not 'soft' on Islamist Terrorism - it is the Tories who sell arms to Saudi Arabia, who helped turn Libya into a terrorist training ground (and which consequently came back to bite us in the form of the Manchester bomber).

Absolutely spot on. Too many areas of public life are unexamined.
Instead of blaming Corbyn for being the victim the endlesss character assasination, that process of vilification of Labour leaders by the media needs to have a powerful light shone on it

And the idea that it is worth getting into power at any price is pretty open to question, and needs treating carefully by those with a moral compass, or real vision for a better country.The Lib Dems , understandably I think, jumped at power, when they could have been more cautious, and paid a heavy price.

Re Hung Parliaments, the term would likely drift into disuse with a decent electoral system.

[LHC]

We certainly need a fairer voting system - if this meant permanently hung parliaments, these would at least force parties into coalitions, which would be far more truly representative of the country as a whole.
Talking of fun and games with ballot papers did any other forum members 'spoil' their paper? Utterly unable to vote Labour or Tory (in a marginal) I thought to offer the counters a poem. I like to think they took a moment to share and appreciate it, but am willing to reflect that perhaps they didn't. The prize of an emoticon to anyone who guesses what it was (hint: it's been quoted on this forum before and pretty much sums up the state we're in and was too long for me to quote it in its entirety).

Of course one of the risks of coalition governments is that marginal and more extremist parties can have a disproportionate influence because they are needed to get a particular coalition over the line. In 2015 for example, UKIP would have been part of a governing coalition, and could have had an even more malign influence on our politics. I think in Israel as well, the ultra-right religious parties have dragged the coalition governments away from any reasonable peace process. As I have noted before, one benefit of FPTP is that the elected government does at least have a chance to enact its manifest commitments (for good or ill).

[MrGongGong]

Public opinion chimes with much of what was in the Labour manifesto, if you look at polls (which I have). As Burning Dog states, many people were/are misinformed about Corbyn, who has never supported the IRA, who is not 'soft' on Islamist Terrorism - it is the Tories who sell arms to Saudi Arabia, who helped turn Libya into a terrorist training ground (and which consequently came back to bite us in the form of the Manchester bomber).

It's not about truth though (if it ever was?)
What I notice is folks going on about now is along the lines of "how on earth do people vote for something that will make them worse off" ? "how can working class people vote Tory" etc etc
The idea that people read the policies and sit down and have a think about what would be best is nostalgic whimsy

Yes, most people would support most of the Labour manifesto (IMV and my guess) but the person who is seen to be in charge is deemed to be worse than the serial fraudster, racist, sexist, lying PM we have. That really takes some doing.

The media won't change and the Labour party have painted themselves into a corner by nailing their colours to the mast of popularism.

[Andy Freude]

Yes to PR about which Jeremy Corbyn said it should be considered along with a complete overhaul of our constitution - which, sadly, was not included in the Labour manifesto. Wouldn't you say that the most effective Labour government since Attlee's (which I think could be called socialist) was Harold Wilson's which was probably better called social democratic - and especially under the chancellorship of Roy Jenkins, later Home Secretary, in which role he was surely a quintessential social liberal? After all, 1951 was 68 years ago (and was one of the couple occasions when the party which came second gained more of the popular vote. Which brings us back to PR).

[ardcarp]

Well done Bella for getting this thread back on track! No, I cast my vote using my heart even though it was completely pointless. So well done also LHC for posting the PR list:

CON: 285 (-80)
LAB: 211 (+9)
LDM: 75 (+64)
SNP: 27 (-21)
GRN: 16 (+15)
BXP: 13 (+13)
DUP: 6 (-2)
PLC: 4 (=)
SF: 4 (-3)
SDLP: 3 (+1)
UUP: 2 (+2)

Question. In the unlikely event of the UK ever adopting a fair PR system, would the leader of the largest party (i.e. CON in your list above) automatically be given first shot at choosing a coalition partner to form a government? Or could any combination of the others team up to form the magic 326 ?

[vinteuil]

Question. In the unlikely event of the UK ever adopting a fair PR system, would the leader of the largest party (i.e. CON in your list above) automatically be given first shot at choosing a coalition partner to form a government? Or could any combination of the others team up to form the magic 326 ?

... a very good question. My assumption wd be that if it was the governing party before the election, the head of that party wd go to the monarch and ask their permission to form a government, which wd normally be granted - but a combination of the others opposing could soon force a vote of confidence, which if that party lost wd allow the opposing coalition to seek the monarch's permission in turn to form a government. If there were doubts as to what the monarch shd do, the Privy Council wd be called in.

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[vinteuil]

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... I used to have some respect for John McDonnell. I see he has now picked out Rebecca Long-Bailey, Angela Rayner, and Richard Burgon as possible replacements for Jeremy Corbyn. Does he wish to see the Labour party permanently unelectable? Richard Burgon???


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[eighthobstruction]

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... I used to have some respect for John McDonnell. I see he has now picked out Rebecca Long-Bailey, Angela Rayner, and Richard Burgon as possible replacements for Jeremy Corbyn. Does he wish to see the Labour party permanently unelectable? Richard Burgon???


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.....in-bloomin-deed....[the matt hancock of Labour]....

[eighthobstruction]

Well done Bella for getting this thread back on track! No, I cast my vote using my heart even though it was completely pointless. So well done also LHC for posting the PR list:



Question. In the unlikely event of the UK ever adopting a fair PR system, would the leader of the largest party (i.e. CON in your list above) automatically be given first shot at choosing a coalition partner to form a government? Or could any combination of the others team up to form the magic 326 ?

....I believe JC was undecided in 2011 AV Ref....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Of course one of the risks of coalition governments is that marginal and more extremist parties can have a disproportionate influence because they are needed to get a particular coalition over the line. In 2015 for example, UKIP would have been part of a governing coalition, and could have had an even more malign influence on our politics.

This is a real problem with democracy, isn't it - if we genuinely believe in people's political opinions being represented in Parliament, we have to allow for extremists'. If we don't, who decides which political views are "acceptable" or not? And to what extent is disallowing UKIP a proportionate voice in parliament, just because we know them to be a bunch of ill-informed racist twits, truly "democratic"?

I think in Israel as well, the ultra-right religious parties have dragged the coalition governments away from any reasonable peace process.

As they did for years in Northern Ireland - nothing to do with the electoral system? And there are many countries that work very well using coalition governments.

As I have noted before, one benefit of FPTP is that the elected government does at least have a chance to enact its manifest commitments (for good or ill).

I do not see this as a "benefit", LHC: I don't believe that Disproportionate Representation, enpowering parties to enforce policies that over half the population have voted against (to say nothing of policies not included in an election manifesto, or of policies conveniently dropped from a manifesto once a party [any party] is in power) is a democratic process.

[teamsaint]

I think we can fairly say that the new PLP has some excellent candidates for deputy leader of the party, or Shadow Chancellor...........

I’d like to think that Rebecca LB has what it takes to take the fight to Boris, but I haven’t seen anything to convince me.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well done Bella for getting this thread back on track!

A little unfair, ardy? Where do you believe it went "off-track" and why?

[eighthobstruction]

....Why Free Broad Band ? [not cheap broad band]....Why 4 day week?[ how about an extra day off every 4 weeks]....Who are the working class JMcD (4or5 W/c's who have different priorities and expectations, with small and large bills to pay)....many of self employed are still w/c really..,.bye bye Seamus , bye bye Lansdale....

[Joseph K]

....Why Free Broad Band ? [not cheap broad band]

Why free health service?

........Why 4 day week?[ how about an extra day off every 4 weeks

Why 5 day week? Ok, 4 day week is certainly possible, and extremely desirable, what with automation and what not. Keynes predicted that we'd end up with a 15-hour working week. What went wrong I wonder...