Fun and games with ballot papers

[Dave2002]

I can’t speak for those interviewers personally but the BBC has had alot of criticism for allowing politicians of all colours to avoid answering questions, and they will BS on and on unless pressed. We’ve all heard their stock answers and sound bites for far too long. Having to answer a few questions should be the least of their worries imho.

Indeed, but asking questions, then shouting over the answers doesn’t make sense. Occasionally perhaps, but it’s getting to be the norm now, and a waste of everybody’s time.

The whole business is getting to be a farce. The politicians “know” that they’re telling porkies, but have to try to outdo their opponents. The interviewers are “just” playing the game too - as if nobody really cares. The interviewers almost certainly get paid more than I ever did. Some of the politicians will at least be out of a job next Friday. The interviewers will still be milking this for weeks, though unfortunately (?) Christmas will get in the way.

[Pulcinella]

Just seen the report in The Sunday Times of a campaign called Votey McVoteface: canal boat owners aiming to unseat Johnson in Uxbridge.

[muzzer]

It does seem like centuries ago.

The 2010s has been a miserable decade for Britain, arguably for the entire western world. A decade in which people were encouraged to forget about aspirations and just concentrate on merely surviving. A decade of sloth, inertia and chronic under-achievement. A ‘low, dishonest decade’ indeed.

I don’t think anyone, whatever their political persuasion, will look back on the 2010s with affection.

It might be salutary to remind ourselves that the government that was elected in 2010 and which persists (albeit in slightly altered form) to this day was the government no-one really wanted.

It was also supposed to be a ‘one-term government’. Received wisdom at the time declared that the ‘swingeing austerity’ that any government elected in that year would have to impose would ensure that it would be booted out five years later.

I would blame the Mililband Project’s failure to capture the popular imagination for the fact that it wasn’t.

Yet it’s still here - and on Thursday, it will be re-elected, quite possibly with a massive majority that will give its egregious CEO a licence to what the hell he likes.

Only in Britain could a government elected under sufferance and on a minority of the popular vote sign the country up to a programme of ‘radical’ change that will alter it (and for the worse) forever.

Anyone with school-age children has an ethical obligation to leave this country as soon as possible and make a better life for their progeny elsewhere - preferably in Europe.

Britain is finished. For good.

Sorry to say I agree with much of this. 2010 seems a very long time ago. But things will only get better (sorry) if people take positive democratic action now so that the slide towards lawlessness and a rerun of some very bad periods in history by those who don’t know any better is avoided. It’s a very tough prospect. Social division is bad and getting worse. There are some truly awful politicians with no sense of history.

And not everyone has the option of emigrating. Nor is it, I suggest, the right thing to do.

But we’ll know soon enough just how grim the next chapter looks.

[LMcD]

Sorry to say I agree with much of this. 2010 seems a very long time ago. But things will only get better (sorry) if people take positive democratic action now so that the slide towards lawlessness and a rerun of some very bad periods in history by those who don’t know any better is avoided. It’s a very tough prospect. Social division is bad and getting worse. There are some truly awful politicians with no sense of history.

And not everyone has the option of emigrating. Nor is it, I suggest, the right thing to do.

But we’ll know soon enough just how grim the next chapter looks.

I certainly feel gloomier about our situation and prospects than I did even in the 1970s with all their shocks and horrors - a decade in which we were at least generally united in the face of our enemies and the threats they posed - but now many people seem to be set on tearing the country apart from the safety of their own entrenched positions.
For me, one of the most depressing aspects of the campaign has been the increased concentration of the media on the part they've played. Their navel-gazing self-importance and arrogance has been breath-taking, but not in a good way.

[burning dog]

I also wonder why they thought, as they obviously did, that Cameron would make a better prime minister than Brown; it seemed pretty clear in 2010 that he wouldn't,

I imagine a lot of Lib Dem activists wondered the same. I beleive a handful of Orange Book MPs had an undue influence on siding with Cameron.

[muzzer]

I used to bridle at the expression “the Conservatives are the natural party of government”, until I realised it meant more that Labour and the LibDems couldn’t actually run anything. With the exception of Blair I think that’s still true. Not as a matter of policy, just in basic administrative terms. But I’ve been proved even wronger of course, as the last 3 years have shown.

The latest media mishandling of the NHS docs issue by Corbyn - he’s been outplayed again by Cummings and co - added to the leaks about how Labour has singularly not addressed anti semitism even on its own limited terms of reference makes it look increasingly as if Bonking Bodger the Bluffoon will win.

Vote tactically. This site looks like a good steer, as it aggregates from other such sites

https://Www.votesmart2019.com

[Joseph K]

added to the leaks about how Labour has singularly not addressed anti semitism even on its own limited terms of reference

Apparently it's still necessary to rebut this.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/smoke-without-fire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/?fbclid=IwAR30TXoN-n83O-rhn1u_dXqMttXRKziQ9dK2hiTaIVrj5qES1xvjRcQO4Uc

[Richard Barrett]

Britain is finished. For good.

I don't know how much experience you have with living in other countries, or how much notice you take of what goes on there, but this kind of thing could be said about very many places not just at the moment but at various times in the past also. Most people don't have the resources or the opportunity to comply with your "ethical obligation" even if they wanted to, which most probably don't. Declaring that everything is f****d up and getting out isn't a solution to anything. This is what has happened in Serbia, for example, a country which is infinitely more "finished" than the UK. Almost everyone who could leave has done so over the past 20-30 years, making life even worse for those who couldn't or wouldn't. Eventually there is nowhere else to go. It's defeatism like yours that will ruin the world. What's needed is imagination.

[Bryn]

Apparently it's still necessary to rebut this.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...qES1xvjRcQO4Uc

Even the Ken Livingstone case was bogus. His facts were basically accurate. The problem was the way he used and expressed them. At the time he was referring to, Adolf Hitler was indeed favourable to the concept of expelling Germany's Jewish population to what is now Israel and Palestine (Palestine at the time) and he was indeed engaged in some negotiations to that effect with Zionist representatives in Germany. However, claiming that that made AH a Zionist was, to put it mildly, way off mark. Livingstone's outlook was and remains opposed to the mode of creation and the anti-Palestinian policies and actions of the Israeli state, not opposition to Jewish people. That said, there is anti-semitism to be found among some members of the Labour Party, as there is in society at large, and it needs to be challenged thoroughly. Corbyn and his supporters should, in my view, be making greater effort to explain and stress the chasm between antisemitism and opposition to the actions of the Israeli state, including that state's interference in UK politics for which several of its embassy officials have been withdrawn in recent years.

[MrGongGong]

What's needed is imagination.

[Conchis]

I don't know how much experience you have with living in other countries, or how much notice you take of what goes on there, but this kind of thing could be said about very many places not just at the moment but at various times in the past also. Most people don't have the resources or the opportunity to comply with your "ethical obligation" even if they wanted to, which most probably don't. Declaring that everything is f****d up and getting out isn't a solution to anything. This is what has happened in Serbia, for example, a country which is infinitely more "finished" than the UK. Almost everyone who could leave has done so over the past 20-30 years, making life even worse for those who couldn't or wouldn't. Eventually there is nowhere else to go. It's defeatism like yours that will ruin the world. What's needed is imagination.

You may be right and I will find it more difficult than many because I don’t have the blessing of an EU family member.

However, consider this: Britain has been a ‘stable’ country for as long as any of us can remember (certainly compared to the some of the places you name). How will the plump-bottomed British react to a prolonged period of instability presided over by a government run and funded by Russian and American gangsters (because that’s exactly what a Johnson majority government will be)?

A lot will depend on the newly-elected government’s skill in managing a situation where people are progressively relieved of their personal liberties and economic freedom without their noticing until ithey’ve gone.

Then again, this lot are a highly-skilled bunch of thieves, so they’ll probably manage it.

[Conchis]

Even the Ken Livingstone case was bogus. His facts were basically accurate. The problem was the way he used and expressed them. At the time he was referring to, Adolf Hitler was indeed favourable to the concept of expelling Germany's Jewish population to what is now Israel and Palestine (Palestine at the time) and he was indeed engaged in some negotiations to that effect with Zionist representatives in Germany. However, claiming that that made AH a Zionist was, to put it mildly, way off mark. Livingstone's outlook was and remains opposed to the mode of creation and the anti-Palestinian policies and actions of the Israeli state, not opposition to Jewish people. That said, there is anti-semitism to be found among some members of the Labour Party, as there is in society at large, and it needs to be challenged thoroughly. Corbyn and his supporters should, in my view, be making greater effort to explain and stress the chasm between antisemitism and opposition to the actions of the Israeli state, including that state's interference in UK politics for which several of its embassy officials have been withdrawn in recent years.

I’m not sure how the lame-brained argument that ‘opposition to the actions of Israel IS anti-semitimsm’ got so much traction but it seems to be widely supported by a lot of influential ‘opinion-formers.’

I have had ‘discussions’ with some of these people and they seem entirely unwilling to explain their reasoning but only too happy to sling mud. One even accused me of something called ‘goysplaining’.

They’ve got no comeback, either, on why people like Gerald Kaufman and Daniel Barenboim are labelled ‘self-hating Jews’.

Of course, when their backs are placed against the wall (which Is most of the time), these people will descend to the ‘What’s the problem? It’s a civilised people fighting savages’ line.

I have visited Israel. It is the tackiest, least spiritual place I have ever been to.

[Serial_Apologist]

I’m not sure how the lame-brained argument that ‘opposition to the actions of Israel IS anti-semitimsm’ got so much traction but it seems to be widely supported by a lot of influential ‘opinion-formers.’

I have had ‘discussions’ with some of these people and they seem entirely unwilling to explain their reasoning but only too happy to sling mud. One even accused me of something called ‘goysplaining’.

They’ve got no comeback, either, on why people like Gerald Kaufman and Daniel Barenboim are labelled ‘self-hating Jews’.

Of course, when their backs are placed against the wall (which Is most of the time), these people will descend to the ‘What’s the problem? It’s a civilised people fighting savages’ line.

I have visited Israel. It is the tackiest, least spiritual place I have ever been to.

Nevertheless, John McDonnell was forced to make apologies yet again this morning on the Andrew Marr Show. I think it's worth observing that this is being treated by the media, the Chief Rabbi, with the backing of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and "vox populi", almost as equivalent to the presence of paedophiles in various religious denominations, or corruption in the police: namely bodies ostensibly charged with upholding the highest standards and ensuring their compliance in society as a whole. In the case of Labour it takes by implication one antisemite alone - for this is what is being alleged, notwithstanding the denials of many, many jews within the party - to contaminate the entire barrel. The Tories get away with it because by implication one would expect it of them, and therefore it's OK - it's rampant throughout society, people are people, etc etc. Or something. Anyway, double standards are being applied and libellers, for that is what they are and they should be brought to book - are being allowed to get away with it. This is where the real corruption lies.

[oddoneout]

Nevertheless, John McDonnell was forced to make apologies yet again this morning on the Andrew Marr Show. I think it's worth observing that this is being treated by the media, the Chief Rabbi, with the backing of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and "vox populi", almost as equivalent to the presence of paedophiles in various religious denominations, or corruption in the police: namely bodies ostensibly charged with upholding the highest standards and ensuring their compliance in society as a whole. In the case of Labour it takes by implication one antisemite alone - for this is what is being alleged, notwithstanding the denials of many, many jews within the party - to contaminate the entire barrel. The Tories get away with it because by implication one would expect it of them, and therefore it's OK - it's rampant throughout society, people are people, etc etc. Or something. Anyway, double standards are being applied and libellers, for that is what they are and they should be brought to book - are being allowed to get away with it. This is where the real corruption lies.

This is what I find, in equal parts sickening and worrying. The impression given by daily media attention is that anti-semitism is only a Labour problem, and their ownership of it is so complete that being Labour is automatically synonymous with being anti-semitic. Are we really expected to believe that there is no such taint within the Conservative Party?

[Conchis]

This is what I find, in equal parts sickening and worrying. The impression given by daily media attention is that anti-semitism is only a Labour problem, and their ownership of it is so complete that being Labour is automatically synonymous with being anti-semitic. Are we really expected to believe that there is no such taint within the Conservative Party?

The Beeb news site headlined the Chief Rabbi’s attack on Corbyn but didn’t give anything like equal prominence to the Muslim Council’s charge of Islamophobia against the Tories.