Fun and games with ballot papers

[LHC]

I’m not going to promote it, but Labour’s manifesto seems quite well thought out in its 108 pages, and I doubt if even 10% of it will be discussed in the media. The electorate at large will probably not bother to read it, though perhaps one shouldn’t worry about that too much. After all, nobody expects any of these statements of intent by any party to actually happen, do they?

There was a discussion on the news the other day about the extent to which governments met their manifesto commitments. The academic researcher interviewed said that UK governments actually had a comparatively good record on this and, by and large, did put their manifestos into practice. So we perhaps should take these statements of intent more seriously.

On reflection, it struck me that this might be one of the (few) advantages of our current first past the post electoral system in that we are more likely to return a single party Government which is then able to enact its manifesto. In Europe, where coalition governments are the norm, the manifesto is the first thing to go in the horse-trading with other parties to agree a governing coalition. Indeed, I always thought the criticism of the Lib Dems that they had not abided by their election manifesto when they were part of the coalition government was particularly stupid, and showed a complete failure on the part of our media to understand how coalitions work.

[MrGongGong]

If we looked at a Scandinavian country that had implemented everything in todays Labour manifesto, I’m sure there would be widespread acclaim for it. We seem to apply different rules to ourselves though.

This is a genuine question

How are wealthy people regarded in Scandinavian countries that have smaller gaps between the most wealthy and poorest ?
I've not spent enough time in Norway and Finland when I have been there to really find out BUT it does seem to me that so much of the narrative of current "left" thinking talks about a more "equal" society that is created by taking things away from those who have the most.
Now, i'm not against people paying their fair share of tax (or even increasing tax for the more affluent) but what comes across is a narrative of ALL wealth being somehow "stolen" from the "workers".
In countries where there is a smaller gap between the wealthiest and poorest do those who earn less regard those who earn more as having "stolen" their money?

[doversoul1]

This is a genuine question

How are wealthy people regarded in Scandinavian countries that have smaller gaps between the most wealthy and poorest ?
I've not spent enough time in Norway and Finland when I have been there to really find out BUT it does seem to me that so much of the narrative of current "left" thinking talks about a more "equal" society that is created by taking things away from those who have the most.
Now, i'm not against people paying their fair share of tax (or even increasing tax for the more affluent) but what comes across is a narrative of ALL wealth being somehow "stolen" from the "workers".
In countries where there is a smaller gap between the wealthiest and poorest do those who earn less regard those who earn more as having "stolen" their money?

What is the point in asking the question about a small gap? That is not how things are in this country and isn’t that the whole point about the issue of the ‘gap’? We have in this country the gap in which, while a man in his 50’s is trying to manage on £150 for two weeks, a woman has trinkets worth a few million pounds scatters around the house. This can't be a small gap that may be found in the Nordic countries. And I don’t think the issue is about faire share of tax but it’s about faire ways of gaining the wealth and one’s living.

[MrGongGong]

What is the point in asking the question about a small gap? That is not how things are in this country and isn’t that the whole point about the issue of the ‘gap’? We have in this country the gap in which, while a man in his 50’s is trying to manage on £150 for two weeks, a woman has trinkets worth a few million pounds scatters around the house. This can't be a small gap that may be found in the Nordic countries. And I don’t think the issue is about faire share of tax but it’s about faire ways of gaining the wealth and one’s living.

If you don't see the point of the question, don't answer it.
Yes, I know about those who have very little, I spend lots of time in places and with people who have next to nothing.

BUT , i'm interested in how people in OTHER PLACES think about these things.

[Oakapple]

There's the novel The Atom Station by H Laxness, part of which concerns communists in Iceland in the 1950s. Some of the attitudes therein could be out of date now (it's a long time since I read it) but it might be worth a read.

[Richard Barrett]

a narrative of ALL wealth being somehow "stolen" from the "workers".

Umm so where does it come from then?

[LMcD]

I can't help noticing that what I originally meant to be a light-hearted 'take' on the plight of those who can't find anybody to vote for has - inevitably - turned into a platform for a full-blown political debate. Not that I'm surprised or unhappy at this development - it's just that for some folk (I'm sure I'm not alone in this) laughter seems to be the only useful response, short of binning one's voting form or postal ballot, to all the current nonsensical goings-on. I doubt whether even a substantial increase in spoiled papers or an equally substantial drop in turn-out will bother the winner(s).

[doversoul1]

BUT , i'm interested in how people in OTHER PLACES think about these things.

OK. That’s fine but how interesting or useful it that if those other places have no equivalent issues?

[Richard Tarleton]

As an aside, I rather went off Pablo Neruda whom JC quoted yesterday after reading his account in his Memorias (Cuaderno 4 page 137 in my Spanish paperback edition) of how he raped a beautiful low-caste woman in Sri Lanka whose job it was to empty the privy under the bungalow where he was staying. Neruda describes how he siezed her by the wrists, took her to his bed, stripped her. "El encuentro fue el de un hombre con una estatua. Permaneció todo el tiempo con sus ojos abiertos, impasible...." .

[Stanfordian]

As an aside, I rather went off Pablo Neruda whom JC quoted yesterday after reading his account in his Memorias (Cuaderno 4 page 137 in my Spanish paperback edition) of how he raped a beautiful low-caste woman in Sri Lanka whose job it was to empty the privy under the bungalow where he was staying. Neruda describes how he siezed her by the wrists, took her to his bed, stripped her. "El encuentro fue el de un hombre con una estatua. Permaneció todo el tiempo con sus ojos abiertos, impasible...." .

I'm not surprised you went off him!

[jayne lee wilson]

Use it or lose it. Don't give up. Don't take refuge in laughter, the ape squatting on the gravestones.

Keep up to date with sites like Gina Miller's.....

https://www.remainunited.org

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-tactical-voting-remain-lib-dems-gina-miller-boris-johnson-a9210701.html

....and make the best tactical decision as late as possible before 12/12...(there's date to conjure with....the midnight of the midnight, darkest of the dark...).

Tonight's much longer, wide-ranging QT/debate should be more revealing of Johnsonian weaknesses....BBC1 1900 hrs...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50511329

[Dave2002]

I'm not surprised you went off him!

Pity it doesn't quite seem like fiction, though even fiction like this would probably not be acceptable nowadays. Would the Nobel committee take notice of this?

https://tamilwoman.tumblr.com/post/79412843312/tw-rape-pablo-neruda-a-glorified-rapist-of

Not good at all. Probably best to leave it there.

[MrGongGong]

OK. That’s fine but how interesting or useful it that if those other places have no equivalent issues?

If you aren't interested don't answer

(the polite version)

[MrGongGong]

Umm so where does it come from then?

I don't know
BUT I am interested in how people think.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't know
BUT I am interested in how people think.

You cited the notion that wealth is accrued by being "stolen from the workers" as if to say this was a ridiculous idea, which would suggest that you had some other idea about how wealthy people become wealthy. There are two principal ways: extracting surplus value out of people, or inheriting it from (somewhere down the line) someone who did. Surely this is a fact, not just how some people think.