Fun and games with ballot papers

[muzzer]

I agree with everything there, apart from that Corbyn should state his preference for Remain or Brexit. It may seem impossible to be more nuanaced than that on so apparently binary a question, but like for many on the Left, staying in or getting out is a choice between two almost equally non-acceptable models of capitalism: rule by a globalised economy of megalopic business conglomerates, or a return to a shrunken inter-nation state form of rivalry of the sort that led to two world wars, and would now destroy civilisation completely. So he has to wangle his way around Labour's erstwhile voters who have become Little Englanders, and the truth that given that his policy agenda would conflict with EU rules about "unfair competition" would mean political self-emasculation. He can go for a different, softer deal than May's or Johnson's; if this is rejected by the EU negotiators he can turn to the electorate and in all honesty say "Well, there you have it". Remaining at least offers two advantages: that environmental, consumer and workers' rights would not be sacrificed in the "national interest"; and the possibility through building a united left front across sister parties in Europe, at some stage, of EU reform in the direction of more genuine democracy, less control by the Commission determing political issues to be effected a priori, and political reliance on Neo-liberal economics, and whatever that word is which describes member states being allowed to determine their own policies unless all democratically agree to the contrary over some particular issue: is it "subordinacy"?

Subsidiarity, I believe.

On a separate point, how informed do you think the British electorate is generally about the broader sweep of history as it relates to Brexit? TV in particular behaves as if the world started last week.

[Dave2002]

On a separate point, how informed do you think the British electorate is generally about the broader sweep of history as it relates to Brexit? TV in particular behaves as if the world started last week.

The British electorate is not particularly well informed about many things, IMO. History beyond 30 years ago would count as Intermediate or Advanced knowledge.

Actually the pedant in me also worries about the use of the word "informed". If used in a fairly common sense of "having a good understanding of", I'll stick with my comments from the previous paragraph - with apologies to the relatively small proportion of the populace who have much better understanding. It may also be used in the sense of receiving information, but with that meaning I would suggest that very frequently all of us are frequently "misinformed".

[Dave2002]

Nobody much wants to discuss the economic effects of EU policy, especially tarriffs , on the developing world, EU legislation that works against smaller businesses, the complexities and issues around CAP, effects of EU grants on small land owners in Africa, etc etc. All just stuff that gets bundled into the box marked “ regrettable imperfections”, I’m afraid.

Indeed. It took an economist to explain to me that in fact the EU is protectionist when it suits - and does indeed have policies and practices which disadvantage people in some poorer countries outside the EU. These were aspects of EU activity which I was more or less completely unaware of previously.

The box "regrettable imperfections" also applies to other aspects of our lives. Another is the use of trained medical staff in the UK who come in from other countries to work in our NHS. This reduces the costs to the NHS I believe, and arguably gives those people a "better life", but in addition depletes the skill base in the countries from which they come. The UK, USA and similar countries should not simply be hoovering up talent and skills from other countries, where such might actually be needed - but they do. Of course we should be very grateful to those people for helping us - but we (as a country) should not be exploiting resources in a one sided way.

As for exporting our dirty industries abroad so that they don't figure in carbon emissions - thereby massaging the UK's own contribution to planet damage .... don't get me on that - not yet at least! More "regrettable imperfections".

[MrGongGong]

Nobody much wants to discuss the economic effects of EU policy, especially tarriffs , on the developing world, EU legislation that works against smaller businesses, the complexities and issues around CAP, effects of EU grants on small land owners in Africa, etc etc. All just stuff that gets bundled into the box marked “ regrettable imperfections”, I’m afraid.

You mean business ?
Isn't that how capitalism works ?

People get together to sort out some deal (go to lots of Proms so you are in the ballot for the last night ) which inevitably means that others don't get such a good deal.

[muzzer]

Indeed. It took an economist to explain to me that in fact the EU is protectionist when it suits - and does indeed have policies and practices which disadvantage people in some poorer countries outside the EU. These were aspects of EU activity which I was more or less completely unaware of previously.

The box "regrettable imperfections" also applies to other aspects of our lives. Another is the use of trained medical staff in the UK who come in from other countries to work in our NHS. This reduces the costs to the NHS I believe, and arguably gives those people a "better life", but in addition depletes the skill base in the countries from which they come. The UK, USA and similar countries should not simply be hoovering up talent and skills from other countries, where such might actually be needed - but they do. Of course we should be very grateful to those people for helping us - but we (as a country) should not be exploiting resources in a one sided way.

As for exporting our dirty industries abroad so that they don't figure in carbon emissions - thereby massaging the UK's own contribution to planet damage .... don't get me on that - not yet at least! More "regrettable imperfections".

These are all elements of interactions between nation states, rightly or wrongly. Nobody is claiming that the EU is some sort of perfect entity, far from it. The triumph of the populist incarnations of the main parties in the U.K. has been to focus general disaffection on an external undefined “thing” so as justify their policies which only benefit their base. Unless some sort of common sense prevails, this country is going to be significantly poorer in the medium to long term.

By the way, where can I buy one of these new money trees? Will they have them at the garden centre?

[Dave2002]

These are all elements of interactions between nation states, rightly or wrongly. Nobody is claiming that the EU is some sort of perfect entity, far from it. The triumph of the populist incarnations of the main parties in the U.K. has been to focus general disaffection on an external undefined “thing” so as justify their policies which only benefit their base. Unless some sort of common sense prevails, this country is going to be significantly poorer in the medium to long term.

By the way, where can I buy one of these new money trees? Will they have them at the garden centre?

Wish I could find a money tree. Perhaps at the end of a rainbow.

Incidentally, most of what we get "told" these days is completely wrong. Almost all of the things which are problems which are ascribed to the B***** word have actually nothing to do with it.

[teamsaint]

You mean business ?
Isn't that how capitalism works ?

People get together to sort out some deal (go to lots of Proms so you are in the ballot for the last night ) which inevitably means that others don't get such a good deal.

Oh thats ok then, as long as its somebody far away that feels the impact, and not us.

[MrGongGong]

Oh thats ok then, as long as its somebody far away that feels the impact, and not us.

No it's not
BUT one does have to live in the world as it is not the one in your head!

Maybe you should take it up with Len McCluskey ?

[MrGongGong]

Consider this - much of what Corbyn's election promises is probably in conflict with EU rules on restrictive practices anyway.
.

That's not what mr Corbyn said this morning

"Regarding EU state aid rules, he says Labour has looked at this carefully. He says all his policies are possible under EU state aid rules."

(https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hope-live-news)

[teamsaint]

No it's not
BUT one does have to live in the world as it is not the one in your head!

Maybe you should take it up with Len McCluskey ?

You seem confused. Places like Africa are the real world, as are the places that you and I live and work in.


As we are giving out patronising advice on action points, maybe you should read up about the bits of the real world that you seem less interested in.

Here's somewhere to start.

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/blog/european-union-bankrolls-deceitful-land-project-ethiopia

[MrGongGong]

You seem confused. Places like Africa are the real world, as are the places that you and I live and work in.


As we are giving out patronising advice on action points, maybe you should read up about the bits of the real world that you seem less interested in.

Here's somewhere to start.

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/blo...oject-ethiopia

No one is suggesting that things are perfect
how will walking away from the EU benefit anyone in Africa ?

(I noticed that the sum of money involved "€3.8 million" would buy you a small house in parts of London)

[teamsaint]

No one is suggesting that things are perfect
how will walking away from the EU benefit anyone in Africa ?

(I noticed that the sum of money involved "€3.8 million" would buy you a small house in parts of London)

Who knows ? But these things don't get discussed inside the bubble is my point. I think it would be much better for everybody, ( and I mean everybody) if they were. As I said before, they just tend to get swept into a corner and ignored as unfortunate imperfections.
And external tarriffs ( from third countries into the EU) are a very real elephant in the room, for any number of reasons. A more level playing field on tarriffs might help African countries, and Britain leaving the EU might help in that direction, though I wouldn't be terribly hopeful at this stage.

[Dave2002]

I’m not going to promote it, but Labour’s manifesto seems quite well thought out in its 108 pages, and I doubt if even 10% of it will be discussed in the media. The electorate at large will probably not bother to read it, though perhaps one shouldn’t worry about that too much. After all, nobody expects any of these statements of intent by any party to actually happen, do they?

[Richard Barrett]

After all, nobody expects any of these statements of intent by any party to actually happen, do they?

Well, Clement Attlee campaigned in 1945 on a promise to set up a system to provide free health care for everyone, and (despite the Tories fighting tooth and nail to stop it from happening) the NHS was indeed set up when he won the election. The idea that nobody ever does what they say there're going to do is, if you don't mind me saying, the sort of cynicism that's exactly the kind of way that Johnson and his chums would like people to think, because they are the people it benefits.

[teamsaint]

Well, Clement Attlee campaigned in 1945 on a promise to set up a system to provide free health care for everyone, and (despite the Tories fighting tooth and nail to stop it from happening) the NHS was indeed set up when he won the election. The idea that nobody ever does what they say there're going to do is, if you don't mind me saying, the sort of cynicism that's exactly the kind of way that Johnson and his chums would like people to think, because they are the people it benefits.

If we looked at a Scandinavian country that had implemented everything in todays Labour manifesto, I’m sure there would be widespread acclaim for it. We seem to apply different rules to ourselves though.
Just at a slight tangent , I was talking to two younger people yesterday, ( quite a bit younger than me that is, probably in their mid 30’s) and they both seemed very defeatist about ever getting a state pension. That age group and younger seems to have been brainwashed into thinking that the pension will be abolished/ limited/ means tested to the point of uselesness. I did tell them that such talk can become self fulfilling !