Fun and games with ballot papers

[MrGongGong]

There are racists, but in all probability there are on both sides of the Remain/Brexit split: quite a few "Euro-ethnic supremacists" out there. Remember the underlying truths the choice conceals - between a globalist economy in which from huge impoverishing life-on-earth threatening profit making activities small titbits trickle down to welfare and the arts, and one which by restoring the primacy of statehood competition between nations threatens perpetual and probably terminal world conflict. You don't need to be a racist to come up with a rationale for Brexit, or to see the whole issue as one gigantic diversion. It's the Tories and Libdems who are choosing to make this election all about Brexit.

You don't need to be a racist to put one in charge
This elections IS all about Brexit
the Labour party (which does have some good ideas about other things) would like it to be otherwise but pretending that everything is the fault of the "evil Tories" and their yellow fellow travellers is bonkers.
YES I would like rich people to pay more tax
YES I would like us to own the railways etc etc

BUT this election is about whether the UK chucks itself off a cliff or not

Also the Labour party is trying to present the argument in the way you have ("but in all probability there are on both sides of the Remain/Brexit split") which means that those of us who would prefer to collaborate with our EU neighbours are now seen as "extreme". I don't buy it for one moment.. but that really is academic because my vote is worth precisely zilch

[Serial_Apologist]

You don't need to be a racist to put one in charge
This elections IS all about Brexit
the Labour party (which does have some good ideas about other things) would like it to be otherwise but pretending that everything is the fault of the "evil Tories" and their yellow fellow travellers is bonkers.
YES I would like rich people to pay more tax
YES I would like us to own the railways etc etc

BUT this election is about whether the UK chucks itself off a cliff or not

Which is to say, more than about Brexit.

Also the Labour party is trying to present the argument in the way you have ("but in all probability there are on both sides of the Remain/Brexit split") which means that those of us who would prefer to collaborate with our EU neighbours are now seen as "extreme". I don't buy it for one moment.. but that really is academic because my vote is worth precisely zilch

I was being a bit more nuanced than polarising it in that way, I think you have to agree.

[teamsaint]

You don't need to be a racist to put one in charge
This elections IS all about Brexit
the Labour party (which does have some good ideas about other things) would like it to be otherwise but pretending that everything is the fault of the "evil Tories" and their yellow fellow travellers is bonkers.
YES I would like rich people to pay more tax
YES I would like us to own the railways etc etc

BUT this election is about whether the UK chucks itself off a cliff or not

Also the Labour party is trying to present the argument in the way you have ("but in all probability there are on both sides of the Remain/Brexit split") which means that those of us who would prefer to collaborate with our EU neighbours are now seen as "extreme". I don't buy it for one moment.. but that really is academic because my vote is worth precisely zilch

The Labour Party, which actually has a chance of forming a government, is offering a softer Brexit at worst, and a referendum with a remain option. Seems a reasonable and straightforward response to the situation that we find ourselves in, one instigated by the tories.

Complaints about the complexity of their position are nonsense IMO. Many everyday tasks, eg how to download an app on a smartphone are harder to understand.

[Dave2002]

But it's all a bit meaningless - here I am, happy to vote Labour in a safe Labour seat, where my vote won't 'mean' anything, while elsewhere friends and colleagues are in solid Tory territory ...

.... where their Remain votes will be similarly meaningless - even though the Tory supporting consituency voted as a whole to Remain.

I'm also not at all convinced that our current system is in any way satisfactory.

[muzzer]

His leaflet says:
'Labour will negotiate a better deal and offer you a choice between Labour's deal and Remain'. Does he seriously believe that the EU will agree to even more negotiations?

Hate to sound like a lawyer, but am still unclear as to what “better” means here. “Better” in whose view? “Better” than the current “deal”, being membership of the EU? And in 3 months. Yes, there have been parallel talks between Labour and the EU, but am still not convinced these people could run a bath. Nor can the Tories, of course, nor even the Lib Dems. Exasperated and disgusted.

[ahinton]

YES I would like us to own the railways etc etc

I do not want to own a railway or shares in one as I haven't the faintest idea how to invest in one or run one. I do not want to own a healthcare business or shares in one either as, likewise, I would have not the faintest idea how to operate NHS; I am perfectly happy in principle for it to be owned and run by the government of the day although the government of the present day seems to be making quite a mess of it.

[teamsaint]

Hate to sound like a lawyer, but am still unclear as to what “better” means here. “Better” in whose view? “Better” than the current “deal”, being membership of the EU? And in 3 months. Yes, there have been parallel talks between Labour and the EU, but am still not convinced these people could run a bath. Nor can the Tories, of course, nor even the Lib Dems. Exasperated and disgusted.

from BBC News, so it must be true:

Mr Corbyn says Labour will negotiate a Brexit deal which maintains a very close trading relationship with the EU. This would be achieved by staying in a customs union and keeping close alignment to the single market.

That would mean the UK would be able to continue trading with the EU without tariffs (taxes on imports) being applied.

Which is their idea of " better". More or less the line they have taken all along.

And quite clearly they are talking about what they see as a better " Leave " deal than the government's, which they will then subject to a referendum.
From where we are, this seems to me to be the fairest, most sensible, most practical approach to the shambles that is ( mostly) of the tories making.

I'm really unclear as to what else Labour could do that wouldn't hand Johnson the election on a plate. If Labour thought they could win this election on a straight revoke ticket, that's what they would have done IMO.

[Serial_Apologist]

from BBC News, so it must be true:

Mr Corbyn says Labour will negotiate a Brexit deal which maintains a very close trading relationship with the EU. This would be achieved by staying in a customs union and keeping close alignment to the single market.

That would mean the UK would be able to continue trading with the EU without tariffs (taxes on imports) being applied.

Which is their idea of " better". More or less the line they have taken all along.

And quite clearly they are talking about what they see as a better " Leave " deal than the government's, which they will then subject to a referendum.
From where we are, this seems to me to be the fairest, most sensible, most practical approach to the shambles that is ( mostly) of the tories making.

I'm really unclear as to what else Labour could do that wouldn't hand Johnson the election on a plate. If Labour thought they could win this election on a straight revoke ticket, that's what they would have done IMO.

Exactly. And I don't see what's hard to understand about this. Does it have to be hard to understand if the impartial BBC says it does?

[MrGongGong]

The Labour Party, which actually has a chance of forming a government, is offering a softer Brexit at worst, and a referendum with a remain option. Seems a reasonable and straightforward response to the situation that we find ourselves in, one instigated by the tories.
.

Not really
The LABOUR party went along with the whole stupid thing
A "soft" Brexit is still a pile of shit we don't need

[LMcD]

Thank you all for your responses.
I've decided to cast a write-in vote for Prince Andrew, but I'll probably still include the Heine:
Ich weiss nicht, was soll es bedeuten
Dass ich so traurig bin
Ein Märchen aus alten Zeiten
Das kommt mir nicht aus dem Sinn
I think the reference to fairy tales is particularly apt as more unfulfillable promises are offered to a (hopefully) disbelieving electorate, plus the fact that the country is heading for the rocks.

[teamsaint]

Not really
The LABOUR party went along with the whole stupid thing
A "soft" Brexit is still a pile of shit we don't need

Virtually all Labour MPs campaigned for remain. Labour have tried to delay brexit and are campaigning for a new referendum , with an option to stay.
The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs and members are actively pro remain. Many Labour MPs have stayed pro remain even when their consituents are mainly pro leave, which I think is how you wanted them to act?
“ going along with the whole thing “ doesn’t reflect what has actually happened.

[teamsaint]

As regards BBC Impartiality, they repeatedly parrot the line about public spending “returning to 1970s levels”.

The problem is that if you take the last five full years of the 1970s Labour governments, and the first five under the tories in the 80s, public spending averaged out at around 48 % of GDP in both cases, and was actually fractionally higher in the early 80s. Clear bias IMO.

[MrGongGong]

Virtually all Labour MPs campaigned for remain. Labour have tried to delay brexit and are campaigning for a new referendum , with an option to stay.
The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs and members are actively pro remain. Many Labour MPs have stayed pro remain even when their consituents are mainly pro leave, which I think is how you wanted them to act?
“ going along with the whole thing “ doesn’t reflect what has actually happened.

Not good enough i'm afraid

I'll just leave this here
A big boy did it and ran away ?

https://www.labourleave.org.uk

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/a8t9pt/jeremy_corbyns_record_on_europe/

Jeremy Corbyn and many others in the Labour party voted FOR the whole thing. It's what they have always wanted.

[teamsaint]

Not good enough i'm afraid

I'll just leave this here
A big boy did it and ran away ?

https://www.labourleave.org.uk

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/a8t9pt/jeremy_corbyns_record_on_europe/

Jeremy Corbyn and many others in the Labour party voted FOR the whole thing. It's what they have always wanted.

Labour Leave was a very small minority of their MPs. Most are pro remain, and campaigned and voted that way.
Leave is what a few Labour MPs “ have always wanted”. Slightly different narrative.

[MrGongGong]

Labour Leave was a very small minority of their MPs. Most are pro remain, and campaigned and voted that way.
Leave is what a few Labour MPs “ have always wanted”. Slightly different narrative.

"Leave" is what many Labour party supporters want.
The reverence which the likes of life-long opponents of the EU like Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner (and apparently until recently Jeremy Corbyn) are held speaks volumes.
When one points this out to Labour enthusiasts they usually go a bit quiet and then do the "but the evil Tories" routine.

Corbyn's record speaks for itself
When this is pointed out his supporters quibble over whether he really went "on holiday" rather than his lifelong opposition to the EU.

Not such a blatant dishonest liar as Boris Johnson but NOT the squeaky clean campaigner we are supposed to see him as.