Fun and games with ballot papers

[Joseph K]

As to Corbyn being a social democrat, the leaders and regimes which he has befriended and admired over the years - Castro, Chavez, Maduro to name but three - suggest not. Of course they are united by one thing, their position vis-a-vis the USA. But luckily none of this matters any more

Margaret Thatcher was friends with Pinochet.

[muzzer]

Surely the thing about myths is that they tend to be prayed in aid of whichever position one is trying to prove? It is a simple matter to identify examples from the Left of those categories cited. In a wider cultural context, look at Star Wars. Stuffed full of myths of the fall and evil geniuses. All to identify the ‘baddies’. But just who are the good guys..?

[Andy Freude]

Surely the thing about myths is that they tend to be prayed in aid of whichever position one is trying to prove? It is a simple matter to identify examples from the Left of those categories cited. In a wider cultural context, look at Star Wars. Stuffed full of myths of the fall and evil geniuses. All to identify the ‘baddies’. But just who are the good guys..?

The essay does say "He makes the point that all three find a corresponding version in right-wing populism...." I was reading an essay about the definitions of "populism", what it does and does not mean. "A political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups" has the nub of it. Politicians of both right and left claim that they are against some "elite" (Farage says this), "For the many, not the few" has the same echo.

Corbyn doesn't claim to be a social democrat, but a democratic socialist. They aren't the same. The party he sought to lead is one of democratic socialism, not social democracy.

[muzzer]

Whichever version of toast it is or was or might have been, it’s still toast.

[Bryn]

Margaret Thatcher was friends with Pinochet.

And dismissed Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela as a terrorist.

[Joseph K]

The essay does say "He makes the point that all three find a corresponding version in right-wing populism...." I was reading an essay about the definitions of "populism", what it does and does not mean. "A political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups" has the nub of it. Politicians of both right and left claim that they are against some "elite" (Farage says this), "For the many, not the few" has the same echo.

Corbyn doesn't claim to be a social democrat, but a democratic socialist. They aren't the same. The party he sought to lead is one of democratic socialism, not social democracy.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/jeremy-corbyn-mainstream-scandinavian-social-democrat/

[MrGongGong]

The Labour party (I mean in its present form) is of course not a revolutionary organisation but a social democratic party, however it might be portrayed by the rightwing media, which means it's by no means committed to the wholesale dismantling of the structures of capitalism, which would be necessary in order to dispose of the economic-growth fetish. Those of us who were attracted, from more radical positions, to the party under Corbyn, saw in it the possibility of taking a parliamentary route towards a decisive step in the direction of the kind of green socialism that is probably going to be needed at some point in this century. This may turn out to have been illusory, but I think it was worth trying, and I still think it is.

Thanks for this
I don't think the Labour party are going to be the ones who really DO this though.
Far to wedded to the narratives of traditional industry and the likes of McCluskey (NOT Andy ....though i'd vote for an analogue synth party ) IMV

[Bryn]

. . . i'd vote for an analogue synth party ) IMV

[Richard Tarleton]

As for the first so-called myth - the Tories are indeed immoral. Austerity, with its thousands upon thousands of deaths, and the Tories' incredible malice towards disabled people (spending more money on trying to take away their benefits than they would have done simply by giving them their benefits!) just to name two examples, are indeed immoral.

QED

The second so-called myth, like the first, is no myth. May I suggest you read this:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html

But this is hardly surprising. Most of our media is owned by billionaires, so we can hardly expect them to be unbiased.

I'd merely observe that this appears to have been written in 2016 - we've had plenty of opportunity to get to know him better since then.

As for the third, I'd say that, rather than harking back to some Golden Age, Labour were the only ones with a credible plan for the problems of the near-future and climate catastrophe.

Margaret Thatcher talked about it in her 1989 address to the UN, as Peter Bottomley reminded us this morning (this was rudely dismissed by Caroline Lucas, of course).

Margaret Thatcher was friends with Pinochet.

Indeed. And this is relevant to Corbyn, how? Like the UN speech, that was 40 years ago. We have, until very recently, been considering the suitability of a future PM. Does that make his friendship with unsavoury dictators more acceptable?

Anyway, I don't wish to intrude on private grief any further, I'm off to do something else

[Andy Freude]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...cial-democrat/

An opinion - like yours (you mentioned 'Scandinavian social democracy' earlier, so I presume you'd read this article then). You may agree with it wholeheartedly but, "The most common refrain among the British political commentariat is that Corbyn is unelectable. That no matter how many members his election as leader has drawn (currently trebled Labour membership from ca. 180k to 560k), or how popular his political rallies are, the Labour Party under his leadership is condemned to lose the 2020 general election."

Written in 2017, so for 2020 read 2019. And note the insertion of the word [Scandinavian] in the headline. Why, if a social democrat is a social democrat is a social democrat? In the UK he was unelected, if not unelectable. I'm not cheering.

"Corbyn: I'm a Socialist not a Unionist"

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13609421.corbyn-im-a-socialist-not-a-unionist/

Democratic socialism implies a socialist econonomy, social democracy doesn't.

Further details on Norway. Centre right?

https://www.heritage.org/index/country/norway

[Joseph K]

QED

I'd merely observe that this appears to have been written in 2016 - we've had plenty of opportunity to get to know him better since then.

Margaret Thatcher talked about it in her 1989 address to the UN, as Peter Bottomley reminded us this morning (this was rudely dismissed by Caroline Lucas, of course).



Indeed. And this is relevant to Corbyn, how? Like the UN speech, that was 40 years ago. We have, until very recently, been considering the suitability of a future PM. Does that make his friendship with unsavoury dictators more acceptable?

Anyway, I don't wish to intrude on private grief any further, I'm off to do something else

… sorry, but you just come across as disingenuous and smug. I'm glad you can smirk in the face of the facts of the Tories' callous policies over this past nine years.

[Joseph K]

An opinion - like yours (you mentioned 'Scandinavian social democracy' earlier, so I presume you'd read this article then). You may agree with it wholeheartedly but, "The most common refrain among the British political commentariat is that Corbyn is unelectable. That no matter how many members his election as leader has drawn (currently trebled Labour membership from ca. 180k to 560k), or how popular his political rallies are, the Labour Party under his leadership is condemned to lose the 2020 general election."

Written in 2017, so for 2020 read 2019. And note the insertion of the word [Scandinavian] in the headline. Why, if a social democrat is a social democrat is a social democrat? In the UK he was unelected, if not unelectable. I'm not cheering.

"Corbyn: I'm a Socialist not a Unionist"

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13609421.corbyn-im-a-socialist-not-a-unionist/

Democratic socialism implies a socialist econonomy, social democracy doesn't.

I wasn't contradicting you, really. I just thought you might like to read that article. The UK is further to the right than most of Scandinavia, hence why Corbyn comes across as extreme.

[Andy Freude]

I wasn't contradicting you, really. I just thought you might like to read that article.

Thank you very much. Yes, it was interesting, but not being absolutely familiar with '[Scandinavian] social democracy, I'm still trying to fathom out why this commentator is comparing Corbyn's Labour party with the Norwegian Labour party when Norway has been governed by centre-right Conservatives for some while. Clearly more work needs to be done (by me!).

[MrGongGong]

The "Space" echo chamber ensemble ?

[Bryn]

The "Space" echo chamber ensemble ?

"Analog On" (Shauna Caffrey and Richard Duckworth).