Fun and games with ballot papers

[Andy Freude]

though I think the Labour party are likely to make the big mistake of thinking that those young folks who voted AGAINST the Tories were voting FOR Labour.

Could you explain that? You mean that although they voted Labour, they weren't voting FOR Labour? I think the party will be content to pocket the votes without bothering with their existentialist identity. And in fact if my limited anecdotal evidence is common, they will have voted FOR Jeremy Corbyn. Such, you may say, is the folly of youth, but that does appear to be the case. But I'm a voter AGAINST. If I'd lived in Cheltenham, I'd have voted Lib Dem AGAINST the Tories.

[MrGongGong]

Could you explain that? You mean that although they voted Labour, they weren't voting FOR Labour? I think the party will be content to pocket the votes without bothering with their existentialist identity. And in fact if my limited anecdotal evidence is common, they will have voted FOR Jeremy Corbyn. Such, you may say, is the folly of youth, but that does appear to be the case. But I'm a voter AGAINST. If I'd lived in Cheltenham, I'd have voted Lib Dem AGAINST the Tories.

I wonder how many people really do vote FOR rather than AGAINST ?
The mistake (IMV) that those in politics make is that they think that ALL the votes in their favour imply support for their party.
Like many people I held my nose and made another pointless cross on a piece of paper that I knew would make no difference whatsoever.

[Dave2002]

aaah that's a different map to the one I saw on FB
will dig a bit

The maps etc. may have been OK a week ago, but things have moved on since then, as most of us have noticed. Is there a new version - I look forward to a revised link?

[Master Jacques]

To celebrate the return of the Good Old Days, here's a link to Henry Russell's setting of Charles Dickens's poem 'The Fine Old English Gentleman'. I append the text, for anyone who doesn't know it, to send shivers down the communal spine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15hNI0ska2xCbnDdioCseHe4Wxq2Q6yiw/view

The Fine Old English Gentleman
(To be said or sung at all Conservative dinners)

I'll sing you a new ballad, and I'll warrant it first-rate,
Of the days of that old gentleman who had that old estate;
When they spent the public money at a bountiful old rate
On ev'ry mistress, pimp, and scamp, at ev'ry noble gate,
In the fine old English Tory times;
Soon may they come again!

The good old laws were garnished well with gibbets, whips, and chains,
With fine old English penalties, and fine old English pains,
With rebel heads, and seas of blood once hot in rebel veins;
For all these things were requisite to guard the rich old gains
Of the fine old English Tory times;
Soon may they come again!

This brave old code, like Argus, had a hundred watchful eyes,
And ev'ry English peasant had his good old English spies,
To tempt his starving discontent with fine old English lies,
Then call the good old Yeomanry to stop his peevish cries,
In the fine old English Tory times;
Soon may they come again!

The good old times for cutting throats that cried out in their need,
The good old times for hunting men who held their fathers' creed,
The good old times when William Pitt, as all good men agreed,
Came down direct from Paradise at more than railroad speed …
Oh the fine old English Tory times;
When will they come again!

In those rare days, the press was seldom known to snarl or bark,
But sweetly sang of men in pow'r, like any tuneful lark;
Grave judges, too, to all their evil deeds were in the dark;
And not a man in twenty score knew how to make his mark.
Oh the fine old English Tory times;
Soon may they come again!

Those were the days for taxes, and for war's infernal din;
For scarcity of bread, that fine old dowagers might win;
For shutting men of letters up, through iron bars to grin,
Because they didn't think the Prince was altogether thin,
In the fine old English Tory times;
Soon may they come again!

But Tolerance, though slow in flight, is strong-wing'd in the main;
That night must come on these fine days, in course of time was plain;
The pure old spirit struggled, but its struggles were in vain;
A nation's grip was on it, and it died in choking pain,
With the fine old English Tory days,
All of the olden time.

The bright old day now dawns again; the cry runs through the land,
In England there shall be dear bread — in Ireland, sword and brand;
And poverty, and ignorance, shall swell the rich and grand,
So, rally round the rulers with the gentle iron hand,
Of the fine old English Tory days;
Hail to the coming time!

[MrGongGong]

The maps etc. may have been OK a week ago, but things have moved on since then, as most of us have noticed. Is there a new version - I look forward to a revised link?

Some data here (and NOT from anything like a "leftwing" source )

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/

[LMcD]

I suspect BoJo will try to do just enough for his ex-Labour voters to stop them from returning to the fold in 2022, thereby increasing the chances of shutting Labour - at least in its present mindset - out of power for a long time or for ever. Whether this prospect will encourage Labour not to persist with some form of Corbynism is their problem, not his.

[vinteuil]

I suspect BoJo will do just enough for his ex-Labour voters to stop them from returning to Labour, or at least persuade them to give him another 5 years, thereby increasing the chances of shutting Labour - at least in its present mindset - out of power for a long time or for ever.

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... indeed Tories may now see Cameron's calling for that Referendum to have been an absolute master-stroke : effectively destroying Labour and securing Tory administrations for the next twenty (?) years. I don't think the history books will be kind to Corbyn.



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[Bryn]

In the aftermath of this rout, too much attention, to my mind, is being paid to what might happen within Parliament. Surely, those mobilised by Momentum will not now restrict their political activity to parliamentary politics?

[Dave2002]

Some data here (and NOT from anything like a "leftwing" source )

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/1...ost-vote-poll/

Thanks, that shows some more up to date data, though doesn't show any regional significance.

Also note that in one of the diagrams, there isn't necessarily a dichotomy.

The statement that "I voted for the party I most wanted to win" and the statement that "I voted to try and stop the party I liked least from winning" in the case of votes for any party, are not mutually exclusive, so the numbers ascribed to these intentions are not "hard" - a bit fuzzy. It would be possible to be counted on either side, or for the interviewer to assign the number to either side - depending on how much interviewer/pollster bias was present.

[teamsaint]

In the aftermath of this rout, too much attention, to my mind, is being paid to what might happen within Parliament. Surely, those mobilised by Momentum will not now restrict their political activity to parliamentary politics?

What is interesting is that the rout in number of seats doesn't really reflect the performance in vote share,which though pretty modest , is better than the LP did in 83, 87, 2010 and 2015.

The Labour party need to look very hard at what they are doing, and who they do or don't represent, and what they stand for , but there is still a baby that doesn't need throwing out with the bathwater, IMO.

[muzzer]

The baby will be a toddler by the time they next get the chance to find out what the country thinks. Let’s hope they use this time wisely.

[vinteuil]

The Labour party need to look very hard at what they are doing, and who they do or don't represent, and what they stand for , but there is still a baby that doesn't need throwing out with the bathwater, IMO.

... the summary of the BBC was succinct and to the point :

Norman Smith says there are two schools of thought about what happens next.
One, Labour's policies are right but the leadership and Brexit got in the way.
Two, the UK is inherently not inclined to back socialist policies and it doesn't matter who's selling them.

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[Richard Barrett]

Surely, those mobilised by Momentum will not now restrict their political activity to parliamentary politics?

Indeed - many of us of course were only drawn to supporting the parliamentary way of doing things by the upheaval in Labour which elected Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Previous to that I had thought of the task of socialists as being to keep the ideas alive and evolving and responsive, against the times when they'd be needed. Depending on who is elected as the next Labour leader, this might be the only way to go in the near future.

The idea that Cameron calling the referendum was a masterstroke doesn't stack up against reality though - whatever benefit it might bring the Tories in the long term, and it might end up destroying them anyway - surely it's clear that Cameron blundered thoughtlessly into it rather than thinking that three years later it would lead to the present situation. Nobody was that prescient, certainly not David "I think I'd be quite good at it" Cameron.

[LMcD]

... the summary of the BBC was succinct and to the point :



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As usual, Norman Smith has got it right. To quote those maddening meerkats: 'Simples'.

[muzzer]

Cameron was raised fo be a stooge of the right imho. And I can’t see the populace rising up to overthrown Johnson. Labour couldn’t even get its own vote out, let alone persuade anyone else that Corbynomics were a good idea. It’s over. Get over it. Get someone electable as leader. Offer people something they can vote for. You can’t tell people what to do.