Fun and games with ballot papers

[muzzer]

We shall have to respectfully differ in opinion ;) Johnson has a large majority and his own momentum (sorry). It’s back to the old days, where you’ve never had it so good (because you’ll take what you’re given and be grateful for it while the rich get richer). I really don’t think the young left understands quite what a kicking it’s just taken. And where I live, those “extra” police are much needed. No revolution, thank you.

[Dave2002]

That already happened. How did they do in this election?

All the Independents got wiped out, including some very decent people.

[oddoneout]

If you mean the Lib Dems, they’re not a mass party. There’s been no serious break to the centre from Labour since the SDP joined the Liberals. Momentum has control of the party machinery, they will crown another loser to continue their project. Britain is essentially conservative with a small c. Alan Johnson said it all today. Go back to student politics if you’re in Momentum. You’re unelectable and today is the proof.

Anyway. It’s irrelevant. The Tories have got 5 years to do what they want. All those rabid lefties who’ve come of age since 2010 in an era of hung parliaments where every week is another cliffhanger can now reflect on their failure at length, as they are completely powerless.


Tragic. Avoidable. Heartbreaking.

Especially since the lack of an effective Opposition Party seems likely to continue for the foreseeable future.

[richardfinegold]

This is scary stuff. For 3 years on this side of the Pond we have been hearing from your side that the Yes voters were a bunch of uneducated,beer swilling, jingoistic, naive naifs who knew not what they were voting for, and that properly educated by their betters, would see the light of reason and vote correctly. So three years of indoctrination and the result is...What? I fear for us over here, where the Trump voters are discussed in the media as interesting insects that must be wiped out before they devour the edifice of Cilivilzation and are similarly harangued. The Democrats have been committing collective seppuku by touting candidates that are perceived by most Americans to be only slightly to the Right of Karl Marx. I fear that Trump will make Boris Johnson victory look puny in comparison in 2020
Let’s face it. The Barbarians are not just at the gates. They have over run everything

[Richard Barrett]

Especially since the lack of an effective Opposition Party seems likely to continue for the foreseeable future.

As I said above, the opposition has actually succeeded in shifting the political agenda significantly to the left, and against the austerity fixation of the previous Tory governments. That I think is the silver lining in the current disaster.

It seems to me that Tory Remainers eventually decided to vote Tory anyway, while many Labour Leavers were put off by Labour offering a second referendum on something that as far as they were concerned had already been decided and which was likely to reverse that decision, so they voted for the only major party offering to "get it done". Also there is the Jeremy Corbyn factor of course. As will be clear to anyone who reads my posts I am a strong supporter of what Corbyn stood for, and also a supporter of his efforts to keep dissimulation and mudslinging out of politics (in which he failed badly of course), and it's also clear that what he stood for, in terms of policies, was popular with many people, who were then repelled by the caricature of Corbyn created for precisely that purpose by, well, everyone with an interest in seeing that none of the aforementioned policies became a reality, and a sufficiently loud voice to put that across. I don't think ideas like the national investment bank and the national education service, to name but two, are going to go away, at least I hope they don't because they represent a manifestly fairer way of doing things than the present one. If the tide finally turns in the USA that will certainly help.

[LHC]

This is scary stuff. For 3 years on this side of the Pond we have been hearing from your side that the Yes voters were a bunch of uneducated,beer swilling, jingoistic, naive naifs who knew not what they were voting for, and that properly educated by their betters, would see the light of reason and vote correctly. So three years of indoctrination and the result is...What? I fear for us over here, where the Trump voters are discussed in the media as interesting insects that must be wiped out before they devour the edifice of Cilivilzation and are similarly harangued. The Democrats have been committing collective seppuku by touting candidates that are perceived by most Americans to be only slightly to the Right of Karl Marx. I fear that Trump will make Boris Johnson victory look puny in comparison in 2020
Let’s face it. The Barbarians are not just at the gates. They have over run everything

One of the lessons from this may be that if you spend three years telling your electorate that they are stupid racists, they may be decide not to vote for you come election time. Similarly if you tell anyone in your party who disagrees with you to f*** off and join the Tories, eventually they may just do so.

[Joseph K]

Especially since the lack of an effective Opposition Party seems likely to continue for the foreseeable future.

Why do you think Corbyn's Labour was not an effective opposition? Off the top of my head I'd say that Corbyn-led Labour inflicted more defeats on the government than any other opposition in history... Google yielded this:

https://www.cambridgelabour.org.uk/romsey/2019/09/05/corbyn-most-effective-opposition-leader/

[Andy Freude]

I think this kind of thinking is a self-fulfilling prophesy, often made by the same people who work quite hard ensuring that it becomes a reality! There's no precedent for a break-away centrist party taking power that I know of, but there is at least to this day the legacy of Labour winning power in 1945.

No legacy of such a party taking power - though they effectively prevented Labour from coming even remotely close to doing so in 1983, with the Tory party then remaining united against all comers.

You have a long memory if you don't see 1945 as history, and a slightly shorter one if you think the current manifestation of the Tory party is anything like the party of the 1950s and 1960s, the party of Macmillan and Heath.

[MrGongGong]

Why do you think Corbyn's Labour was not an effective opposition? Off the top of my head I'd say that Corbyn-led Labour inflicted more defeats on the government than any other opposition in history... Google yielded this:

https://www.cambridgelabour.org.uk/r...sition-leader/

(Miles Davis again )
Delusional nonsense

The Labour party has failed COMPLETELY
shafted us as much as the Tories i'm afraid and the blame lies fair and square with the man in charge

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party?fbclid=IwAR0_it39UXi7tsXJuQTmSXEVyLo9X_4ofg5FXiWOpKGnCY_Npgr-RKOBkR0

[Joseph K]

Miles Davis again





https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...Y_Npgr-RKOBkR0

Ah yes, someone mistakenly thought Corbyn wasn't an effective opposition leader, and I point out that he actually was, but so what when you can laugh and post an article from someone responsible for smearing him (self-fulfilling prophesy again).

Tell me, Mr GG, how well do you think Labour would have done had they been sufficiently 'Remain' for your liking?

[MrGongGong]

Ah yes, someone mistakenly thought Corbyn wasn't an effective opposition leader, and I point out that he actually was, but so what when you can laugh and post an article from someone responsible for smearing him (self-fulfilling prophesy again).

Tell me, Mr GG, how well do you think Labour would have done had they been sufficiently 'Remain' for your liking?

He failed completely and we will all suffer the consequences.

If we had a credible opposition that was clearly against the suicide pact that is Brexit then the vast majority (and it probably now IS a majority of the whole country) of folks who want us to stay in the EU would vote for them to stop it. But, sadly, most of our politicians are far more interested in their own little playground squabbles and the like.

Sure, the media have it in for him
BUT that's the gig i'm afraid
it would be good if it wasn't but that's the way it is

When the Labour party was in power last time they realised this and worked around it.

So many of the folks I know keep chanting the whole "evil Tories" mantra and STILL believe in Corbyn when he clearly is NOT the answer (i'm sure i've said that before somewhere ?)

The myth of the Socialist "working class" is very powerful amongst the Labour party.

[Andy Freude]

As far as the media coverage is concerned, no-one could say that Johnson got positive coverage: melting ice sculptures, jokes about hiding in a fridge, rants from Andrew Neil at him dodging media scrutiny, stories of the American 'businesswoman' amid claims of dodgy dealings when he was London mayor - all fully reported.

The fact is, his message was enough and his base didn't care about the media stories. Just like Trump. Similarly, voters didn't like the Labour message/policies or the leadership (Corbyn was the least popular with the general public).

For the Tories the election was all about tribal loyalty (and Brexit), for Labour it was about Brexit (in the heartlands where the damage was done). The idea that the Labour message was fine, the leadership was excellent and the party was only sunk by press smears is, I'm afraid, tribal loyalty - notwithstanding the fact that, for the Momentum/left-wing section of the party and voters, the message and Corbyn had their full support. I voted Labour and was entirely sympathetic to the manifesto policies, but that is nevertheless my view of the reality.

[muzzer]

As far as the media coverage is concerned, no-one could say that Johnson got positive coverage: melting ice sculptures, jokes about hiding in a fridge, rants from Andrew Neil at him dodging media scrutiny, stories of the American 'businesswoman' amid claims of dodgy dealings when he was London mayor - all fully reported.

The fact is, his message was enough and his base didn't care about the media stories. Just like Trump. Similarly, voters didn't like the Labour message/policies or the leadership (Corbyn was the least popular with the general public).

For the Tories the election was all about tribal loyalty (and Brexit), for Labour it was about Brexit (in the heartlands where the damage was done). The idea that the Labour message was fine, the leadership was excellent and the party was only sunk by press smears is, I'm afraid, tribal loyalty - notwithstanding the fact that, for the Momentum/left-wing section of the party and voters, the message and Corbyn had their full support. I voted Labour and was entirely sympathetic to the manifesto policies, but that is nevertheless my view of the reality.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Labour lost. It’s irrelevant how toxic or mendacious the Tories are. They got their act together and have wiped out Labour for a generation. This country doesn’t want a Corbyn version of socialism. The sooner the hard left wakes up to this the better.

[ahinton]

the point where Johnson has had to promise large numbers of people an enormous amount of stuff that he's going to have to deliver at least some of, if his majority isn't going to be wiped out at the next election

...and for which he will almost certainly be unab le to borrow sufficient funds because UK is already woefully over-borrowed and, with its economoy set to nosedive on account of Brexit, other nations are unlikely to regard UK as a via ble lending risk.

Otherwise needless to say I'm appalled that such a person has become prime minister, and, from a selfish point of view, I've never been so glad that I don't live in the UK. I think I'm going to give it a few months before I even set foot there.

Can't say that I blame you. Whatever the truth or othrwise in some of the stuff that's been bandied about re Corbyn, it could be argued that the memberships of Labour, the Tories and the LibDems have all made unwise decisions as to their respective leaders. And yes, the prospect of a government led by someone who is inarticulate at best and incoherent at worst is hardly one to look forward other than with grave misgivings.

[Joseph K]

As far as the media coverage is concerned, no-one could say that Johnson got positive coverage: melting ice sculptures, jokes about hiding in a fridge, rants from Andrew Neil at him dodging media scrutiny, stories of the American 'businesswoman' amid claims of dodgy dealings when he was London mayor - all fully reported.

The fact is, his message was enough and his base didn't care about the media stories. Just like Trump. Similarly, voters didn't like the Labour message/policies or the leadership (Corbyn was the least popular with the general public).

For the Tories the election was all about tribal loyalty (and Brexit), for Labour it was about Brexit (in the heartlands where the damage was done). The idea that the Labour message was fine, the leadership was excellent and the party was only sunk by press smears is, I'm afraid, tribal loyalty - notwithstanding the fact that, for the Momentum/left-wing section of the party and voters, the message and Corbyn had their full support. I voted Labour and was entirely sympathetic to the manifesto policies, but that is nevertheless my view of the reality.

I think many people are drunk on Nationalism, and the communities decimated by Thatcherism see Brexit i.e. Nationalism as a much more plausible alternative means of social cohesion than any kind of class-based consciousness. Of course, the very rich, are all too class-conscious.

Of course, it's quite complex... there are many facets to trying to explain the GE result. Johnson has spent quite a few years cultivating his image via TV appearances, and his very real racism not to mention the racism of the Tory party was smothered by the periodic purported crises of antisemitism in the Labour party. I recall a quote of Goebbels where he suggests accusing your opponent of that which you yourself are guilty. So the BBC and others waged a war of attrition against Corbyn's Labour... and I think older people are more likely to be receptive to the news on TV.