Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think many people would label Holdsworth or Bailey as "most guitarists".

No but as I understand things notation is more analogous to a toolbox and its contents for making something than an end product: we don't say placing these notes on a stave stands in the way of originality any more than we say using these chisels, files and so on prevents me from making an original wooden sculpture, because they are means to an end. We may be able to find other means, but will they guarantee originality of approach or concept?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

IMHO the lushness and extreme 'otherness' of Holdsworth's harmonies (and other attributes of his syntax besides) were not in spite of his not reading notation, but in large measure because of. When you've never had a rule book to unshackle yourself from, you're better equipped - if you work hard at it - to create a highly distinctive musical DNA.

This is nonsense.

[Boilk]

This is nonsense.

Also sprach ferneyhoughgeliebte. But it's not necessarily nonsense. There could be less acquired musical orthodoxy to 'unlearn' or supplant with something new, in order for the composer to find a distinctive voice. Sometimes being schooled in a tradition is a barrier to breaking free of that tradition.

[Joseph K]

Also sprach ferneyhoughgeliebte. But it's not necessarily nonsense. There could be less acquired musical orthodoxy to 'unlearn' or supplant with something new, in order for the composer to find a distinctive voice. Sometimes being schooled in a tradition is a barrier to breaking free of that tradition.

But Holdsworth is obviously quite familiar with jazz tradition. I remember reading about him learning Charlie Christian solos in his early days, and indeed, google gave me this interview: http://steveadelson.com/interview_holdsworth.php

So saying, I guess in this interview he does refer to himself as 'unschooled'. And who 'John McGaughlin' is is anyone's guess.

[Richard Barrett]

less acquired musical orthodoxy to 'unlearn'

You seem here to be repeatedly implying that musical literacy is inherently orthodox, which isn't the case. But, as someone without a traditional musical education, I taught myself to read music; it really isn't that difficult.

[cloughie]

You seem here to be repeatedly implying that musical literacy is inherently orthodox, which isn't the case. But, as someone without a traditional musical education, I taught myself to read music; it really isn't that difficult.

So true Richard, I would have thought that anyone interested in music, particularly if they play an instrument or sing, would be fascinated to know what those dots on pages mean - the basics are simple, though it does get more complex, but those complexities are very interesting! On the question of orthodoxy being unlearned - I think that is overplayed - however creating music is not difficult - writing the dots takes a little longer!

[Joseph K]

But, as someone without a traditional musical education, I taught myself to read music; it really isn't that difficult.

Same here. Actually - perhaps this is a topic for another thread - one of the problems with the guitar is that although I had (free) lessons at school, I was only taught tab. But I believe that this is very much not uncommon for guitarists.

Also, I can read music in one sense, but if by 'reading music' one means looking at it and reproducing it in my head... I can't do that, at least with all but the simplest/diatonic melodies...

[cloughie]

Same here. Actually - perhaps this is a topic for another thread - one of the problems with the guitar is that although I had (free) lessons at school, I was only taught tab. But I believe that this is very much not uncommon for guitarists.

Also, I can read music in one sense, but if by 'reading music' one means looking at it and reproducing it in my head... I can't do that, at least with all but the simplest/diatonic melodies...

Interesting Joseph, my experience is the opposite and I have no real affinity with tabs, but could help me with piano chords, but I can sing a tune in my head, and work out harmonies from reading the sheet, then as I have said writing that down takes time, and the result may sound right and what I want but probably ‘breaks the rules of harmony’ .

[Joseph K]

Interesting Joseph, my experience is the opposite and I have no real affinity with tabs, but could help me with piano chords,

?? If you play guitar, you learn tab, either before learning music notation or along with it. I don't know how tab could help you with piano chords.

but I can sing a tune in my head, and work out harmonies from reading the sheet, then as I have said writing that down takes time, and the result may sound right and what I want but probably ‘breaks the rules of harmony’ .

But then, there are only rules of harmony if you're writing pastiche e.g. chorale harmonisation in the style of Bach or something like species counterpoint.

I have experience with tonal harmony. I can hear it internally to an extent. But with atonal music, I'd really need a piano or guitar to play something to make sure I know what it sounds like, before putting it into Sibelius software (which I don't have, but would absolutely need were I to get into composing seriously). As for writing microtonal music, that really is in outer-space as far as I'm concerned.

[MrGongGong]

This really is another thread
but

TAB is a notation
it works like this



or this



or even this





"Instructions for actions" which describe WHAT to do

[Mal]

Nicky Campbell is trying to kill people on Radio 5. Hottest day ever and he says open all the windows. How much does he earn again? How many actual experts could you employ for the same cost?

First tip from NHS "Living Well":

"Shut windows and pull down the shades when it's hotter outside. You can open the windows for ventilation when it's cooler."

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/heatwave-how-to-cope-in-hot-weather/

I must turn off Radio 5, I'm already hot and bothered enough.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wonder if Cloughie is mixing Tab Notation with Guitar fingering symbols?

[Joseph K]

This really is another thread
but

TAB is a notation

"Instructions for actions" which describe WHAT to do

Yes, and there is a sense in which guitar tab is more unambiguous than a lot of staff notation, since the latter, unless the position is given, can often be played in more than one way on the fretboard.

However, most guitar tab I've seen (and most I looked was when I was in my teens) didn't feature rhythm i.e. the stems/flags above the number. In that sense quite a lot of important information is lost with just the tab.

Most 'tab books' will feature the music notation with the tab below it.

[cloughie]

I wonder if Cloughie is mixing Tab Notation with Guitar fingering symbols?

He may very well be. I don’t do guitars!

[johnb]

?? If you play guitar, you learn tab, either before learning music notation or along with it.

I never "learnt" tab. My classical guitar teacher, back in the early 70s was "old school" and I can't see him, or the guitar centre he established, entertaining the idea of tab. (I did have the advantage of being able to read music before I started the classical guitar.)

Of course, if you play the lute, or are very interested in lute music, all the sources are written in tablature so being fluent in "tab" is essential.

As far as the classical guitar is concerned, IMO getting used to playing from Tab instead of learning standard notation can be an immense drawback.