Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse

[Joseph K]

What it boils down to is this - can you forgive someone their irresponsible and stupid comments because of the quality of their music? In this case, the answer for me is a resounding 'yes'. I love the Beatles. And this is the first I've heard of McCartney's attitude towards notation. I think people might have exaggerated his influence, TBH - who or what kind of young person would seek out someone like McCartney's attitude towards music notation, or become influenced by it? No, I can't see this as having very much influence at all. If he'd mastered music notation I highly doubt it'd become de rigeur amongst pop/rock musicians of later generations.

[ahinton]

What it boils down to is this - can you forgive someone their irresponsible and stupid comments because of the quality of their music? In this case, the answer for me is a resounding 'yes'. I love the Beatles. And this is the first I've heard of McCartney's attitude towards notation. I think people might have exaggerated his influence, TBH - who or what kind of young person would seek out someone like McCartney's attitude towards music notation, or become influenced by it? No, I can't see this as having very much influence at all. If he'd mastered music notation I highly doubt it'd become de rigeur amongst pop/rock musicians of later generations.

Be that as it may or may not, I must admit that, broadly speaking, I'm with MrGG here. PMcC has depended at various times on the notational and other musical skills of the likes of David Matthews and Richard Rodney Bennett to get some of his more "ambitious" things off the ground, yet he seems to expect the nature and level of respect as a musician that are customarily accorded to those who do at least possess those skills that he himself appears not to do. What seems not to be spoken of is why he hasn't seen fit to make the effort required master even the basics of music notation which so many people manage to do before they reach the age of ten; is it some ind of arrogance on his part, prompted by a misplaced belief that it's not necessary? I doubt it, frankly, as it seems far more akin to the kind of simple laziness that enables someone who's made a fortune out of what he does to afford to secure the services of others to do the hackwork for him.

[Joseph K]

yet he seems to expect the nature and level of respect as a musician that are customarily accorded to those who do at least possess those skills that he himself appears not to do.

… and your evidence for this is?

What seems not to be spoken of is why he hasn't seen fit to make the effort required master even the basics of music notation which so many people manage to do before they reach the age of ten;

… yes, if they're lucky and privileged enough to have parents who will provide music lessons of that nature at that age. And, uh, have you read this thread? The main bone of MrGG's contention appears to be Macca's reluctance to learn notation.

is it some ind of arrogance on his part, prompted by a misplaced belief that it's not necessary? I doubt it, frankly, as it seems far more akin to the kind of simple laziness that enables someone who's made a fortune out of what he does to afford to secure the services of others to do the hackwork for him.

Well, I don't care if he earnt a fortune because I love The Beatles.

Didn't Scelsi produce much work by having people transcribe his improvisations?

I remember something Richard Barrett has said - I am interested not in how something is done, but rather what it is doing.

[LezLee]

It's possible he simply has a 'blind spot'. I was taught violin from aged 8 - 10 and was told I was good, but however much my teacher tried he never managed to teach me notation or any sort of theory. I simply looked at the music and knew which note on which line or space represented which finger on which string! I tried again as a teenager but still didn't 'get' it.

[Joseph K]

I remember something Richard Barrett has said - I am interested not in how something is done, but rather what it is doing.

Incidentally, I don't think this is meant to be taken entirely literally, but rather not letting a preoccupation with means affecting how one perceives the end result...

[ahinton]

… and your evidence for this is?

The fact that he has seen fit to continue as long as he has done without apparetly feeling the need to develop those skills and use them himself rather than depending upon other to use theirs on his behalf.

… yes, if they're lucky and privileged enough to have parents who will provide music lessons of that nature at that age.

Of course (and I do not know whethr PMcC's background in that respect) but I mention that age not because I wonder why he didn't start to acquire those skills before reaching it but because he seems not to have seen fit to try to acquire them since then when he could well have afforded to pay whatever might be necessary in order for him to take advantage of opportunities to do so.

And, uh, have you read this thread? The main bone of MrGG's contention appears to be Macca's reluctance to learn notation.

Yes, I have and yes, it is, although the reason for that now long-term reluctance appears to remain open to question.

Well, I don't care if he earnt a fortune because I love The Beatles.

Nor do I care about that, although I can take or leave The Beatles.

Didn't Scelsi produce much work by having people transcribe his improvisations?

Ornstein I think did the same in the latter years of his creativity but there were, I believe, health reason for that and, in each case, the composers had developed notational skills.

I remember something Richard Barrett has said - I am interested not in how something is done, but rather what it is doing.

I don't remember reading that but now that you have kindly drawn it to my attention I am bound to agree with it!

[ahinton]

Incidentally, I don't think this is meant to be taken entirely literally, but rather not letting a preoccupation with means affecting how one perceives the end result...

Indeed; that's surely understood?

[Serial_Apologist]

It's possible he simply has a 'blind spot'. I was taught violin from aged 8 - 10 and was told I was good, but however much my teacher tried he never managed to teach me notation or any sort of theory. I simply looked at the music and knew which note on which line or space represented which finger on which string! I tried again as a teenager but still didn't 'get' it.

I would argue that to be musically "gifted" need not always demand theoretical or working knowledge of notation, whether that be the ability to read or write it. It is an essential for ensemble playing, whether orchestral, brass band or jazz big band; but in jazz there are bandleaders who value a non-musically literate participant for is or her contribution as an improviser. Musical literacy is no guarantee of inspiration or originality, and I have met several improvisers of advanced sophistication who cannot actually read music. I myself am very poor at it - which was more a matter of sight-reading pianio score difficulties than as a vocalist, because I led each board in the school choir - treble, alto, tenor and bass - usually providing my line "by ear" since I had (and have) a good ear for harmony, and I knew what such things as whole-tone and polytonal harmony meant in writings that mentioned them, having recognised them beforehand in listening to works containing these devices. Writing music is (for me) more difficult when it comes to notating down the durational values than the pitches, since the former involves complicated (to me) arithmetic calculations, with every beat accounted for, including rests (!) - for I am no good at proportions. The effort required for writing a jazz score, let alone the superhuman qualities needed by Brian Ferneyhough for calculating the rhythmic values and ratios in his scores, would be way beyond my powers.

[cloughie]

But he himself claims that he "cannot read Music" - that's the point.

IIRC, Berlin's piano skill was very limited (he had a special instrument manufactured with a lever that "enabled" him to change key as he was "playing"), and he could neither read, nor write Musical notation.

I would agree with that but it didn’t stop him ‘writing’ some very good tunes and lyrics!

[Joseph K]

The fact that he has seen fit to continue as long as he has done without apparetly feeling the need to develop those skills and use them himself rather than depending upon other to use theirs on his behalf.

No - that is not evidence for your original assertion - "yet he seems to expect the nature and level of respect as a musician that are customarily accorded to those who do at least possess those skills that he himself appears not to do." Surely if he expected the purported level of respect accorded to musically-literate musicians his options would be a) lie about it and claim he was responsible for his compositions' notation or b) actually learn the notation and do it himself.

I don't remember reading that but now that you have kindly drawn it to my attention I am bound to agree with it!

Well then - you obviously agree that it is irrelevant whether Macca knows notation.

[ahinton]

No - that is not evidence for your original assertion - "yet he seems to expect the nature and level of respect as a musician that are customarily accorded to those who do at least possess those skills that he himself appears not to do." Surely if he expected the purported level of respect accorded to musically-literate musicians his options would be a) lie about it and claim he was responsible for his compositions' notation or b) actually learn the notation and do it himself.

I am not certain that this necessarily follows, to the extent that he has had plenty of opportunities to acquire those skills over a good many years but appears to have chosen to pass on them; what I meant (and perhaps should have been clearer) was that that expectation itself is dependent upon an assumption on some people's part that his achievements might of themselves are indicative that he possesses similar skills to other musicians who are musically literate.

Well then - you obviously agree that it is irrelevant whether Macca knows notation.

Relevance to whom and for what reason, though? The difference here is surely that Richard is fully conversant with conventions of musical notation whereas PMcC is not and that Richard has seen fit to develop those skills whereas PMcC has not. Who knows how PMcC's music might itself have benefitted from notational skills and the practical understanding of harmony, counterpoint, rhythm, melody and instrumentation that might be expected to accompany them? I'm not suggesting that it would have done, still less in what ways it might have done, but...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would agree with that but it didn’t stop him ‘writing’ some very good tunes and lyrics!

Absolutely (both of them - McC & Berlin) - both excellent composers.

[cloughie]

I would argue that to be musically "gifted" need not always demand theoretical or working knowledge of notation, whether that be the ability to read or write it. It is an essential for ensemble playing, whether orchestral, brass band or jazz big band; but in jazz there are bandleaders who value a non-musically literate participant for is or her contribution as an improviser. Musical literacy is no guarantee of inspiration or originality, and I have met several improvisers of advanced sophistication who cannot actually read music. I myself am very poor at it - which was more a matter of sight-reading pianio score difficulties than as a vocalist, because I led each board in the school choir - treble, alto, tenor and bass - usually providing my line "by ear" since I had (and have) a good ear for harmony, and I knew what such things as whole-tone and polytonal harmony meant in writings that mentioned them, having recognised them beforehand in listening to works containing these devices. Writing music is (for me) more difficult when it comes to notating down the durational values than the pitches, since the former involves complicated (to me) arithmetic calculations, with every beat accounted for, including rests (!) - for I am no good at proportions. The effort required for writing a jazz score, let alone the superhuman qualities needed by Brian Ferneyhough for calculating the rhythmic values and ratios in his scores, would be way beyond my powers.

I agree with a lot of what you have said there - harmonising vocal lines by ear I find very easy and can pitch and sing TTBB lines, writing them takes a lot longer and getting the right emphasis on lyrics in the bar and like you have to think out note lengths, but use of sibelius or muse can be very helpful in this, as any errors will show up in playback. A cappella arrangements I find much easier than trying to add parts in to PVG score, as clashes with accompaniment are not uncommon and, as yet, I am not brilliant at writing piano parts. What is interesting, going back to Macca is that the Beatles PVG sheet music is fine to pick out the tune, less so for accompaniment. I recently looked at Ticket to Ride and the arrangement in the Carpenters book is very much better! Sheet music for songs of the 30s, 40s and 50s eg Porter, Kern, Rogers, even Berlin, seems are very much better than much later stuff.

[doversoul1]

Be that as it may or may not, I must admit that, broadly speaking, I'm with MrGG here. PMcC has depended at various times on the notational and other musical skills of the likes of David Matthews and Richard Rodney Bennett to get some of his more "ambitious" things off the ground, yet he seems to expect the nature and level of respect as a musician that are customarily accorded to those who do at least possess those skills that he himself appears not to do. What seems not to be spoken of is why he hasn't seen fit to make the effort required master even the basics of music notation which so many people manage to do before they reach the age of ten; is it some ind of arrogance on his part, prompted by a misplaced belief that it's not necessary? I doubt it, frankly, as it seems far more akin to the kind of simple laziness that enables someone who's made a fortune out of what he does to afford to secure the services of others to do the hackwork for him.

There is absolutely no point in trying to fit something like The Beatles into rules, and whatever he does or doesn’t, Paul McCartney today exists because of The Beatles. I’m sure those who help him are only too happy to do so for their own reasons and I’m also sure that people are queuing up to help him. Besides, this is about a sentimental entertainment. Surely, it can work differently from composing serious works of music.

[ahinton]

There is absolutely no point in trying to fit something like The Beatles into rules, and whatever he does or doesn’t, Paul McCartney today exists because of The Beatles. I’m sure those who help him are only too happy to do so for their own reasons and I’m also sure that people are queuing up to help him. Besides, this is about a sentimental entertainment. Surely, it can work differently from composing serious works of music.

I guess.