New CBSO School approved by Government

[MrGongGong]

Mr GG
This is not about the importance of music education in school. It is about the wisdom (or lack of I’d say) of opening a school with such a prestigious association in a deprived area as this..

Quite right
we don't want THOSE sorts of people associating with an ORCHESTRA

Yes, the whole "academy" thing is bullshit

BUT this IS about an organisation trying to do something about music education
when most people (and most so-called "music lovers") couldn't give a sh*t about it as long as THEY can go and hear what they want.

The CBSO (and BCMG and every other ensemble I know in the UK) have been working in all sorts of places for years... it's one of the things we do well in the UK. Which is why some of us go to other countries to lead projects based on this experience.

Gongers: this isn't Finland. If what you say is true, there is no division between haves and have nots in terms of music tuition. So no concept of 'privilege' or 'elitism' attached to it.

No it isn't true... I made it all up, i've never been outside Lincolnshire

[doversoul1]

Quite right

BUT this IS about an organisation trying to do something about music education
when most people (and most so-called "music lovers") couldn't give a sh*t about it as long as THEY can go and hear what they want.

The CBSO (and BCMG and every other ensemble I know in the UK) have been working in all sorts of places for years... it's one of the things we do well in the UK. Which is why some of us go to other countries to lead projects based on this experience.

Good intention alone is never good enough when it comes to social enterprise such as this. I wonder how much research they (whoever advised/decided to go ahead with this project) did on the effects of setting up a prestigious school in a deprived area where exiting schools can hardly fill the post of qualified teachers. Music projects for school are great things. Why can't they expand what they do so well if they have the resource (instead of getting mixed up in the dodgy business of academy)?

[french frank]

Schools are, in theory, open to all the children unconditionally in the catchment area. How much the over subscription criteria can be applied to is anybody's guess.

Key words being 'in theory'. With oversubscribed schools - of any sort - that can't be realised.

I described this as 'an experiment': why not forget about the theory, politics and dogma and let a school which is breaking new ground be allowed to see what it can achieve?

[MrGongGong]

Good intention alone is never good enough when it comes to social enterprise such as this. I wonder how much research they (whoever advised/decided to go ahead with this project) did on the effects of setting up a prestigious school in a deprived area where exiting schools can hardly fill the post of qualified teachers. Music projects for school are great things. Why can't they expand what they do so well if they have the resource (instead of getting mixed up in the dodgy business of academy)?

Are your strong views against this based on experience?
(a serious question)

Many of the schools I go to these days don't do ANY music at all.
Creating a school that has music at the centre and ISN'T like the specialist music schools that we have would seem to me to be a fundamentally GOOD idea
OR are you really saying that because everyone can't have music in school then no-one should have it?

Would you be happy for the CBSO to festoon Symphony Hall with a huge banner saying

"Don't vote for the f*cking Tories, they are destroying music education."

(I wouldn't have any problem with that myself)
OR would you rather that they DID something about it (albeit withing the constraints of a flawed system)?

[oddoneout]

It seems very much a re-invention of the wheel formerly known as Specialist Status School. That was a divisive scheme as well and got lost once political interests decided it was time to fiddle with education again and take away even more funding.
I hope for the sake of the children involved that it works, but I don't believe it will change national policy on education provision even if the results are outstanding. The current fashion is for narrow academic focus and non inclusion of 'soft' subjects; the consideration of whether that is in the best interest of the pupils (or indeed the country) does not arise.
If parents move into the area in order that their children can access such opportunities that would be seen as a good thing by some no doubt - regeneration without massive financial input. However that would need the school to run for a good few years and deliver the appropriate Ofsted ratings, which education policy short-term thinking mitigates against, and also brings with it the usual gentrification problem of unaffordable housing for the existing, already disadvantaged, population.

[doversoul1]

Are your strong views against this based on experience?
(a serious question)

I was involved in research both academic and journalism in the areas of child poverty, school education system, social enterprise, and vocational education/training for young people for many years, and all these involved visits to schools (all in the UK). In one occasion, I/we visited an estate agent in North London who told us how two identical houses on both sides of a street could fetch so much different prices because one house was on the ‘right’ side, i.e. in the catchment. Whilst my last involvement was a few years ago, I don’t believe things have changed very much let alone improved.

Creating a school that has music at the centre and ISN'T like the specialist music schools

I don’t think this is how some/many parents see a school like this. It is to some parents, an opportunity they could afford to buy.

Would you be happy for the CBSO to festoon Symphony Hall with a huge banner saying "Don't vote for the f*cking Tories, they are destroying music education."

What I find it a pity is that an organisation that is already doing such an excellent work has decided to take up something of which they can’t possibly have enough knowledge and experience.

oddoneout

However that would need the school to run for a good few years and deliver the appropriate Ofsted ratings,

I think in this case the association will be a big enough attraction for some parents not to bother to wait for what Ofstead might say. And yes, gentrification isn’t necessary a welcome thing to the locals. A lot of that is happening in towns on Kent coast.

[MrGongGong]

I was involved in research both academic and journalism in the areas of child poverty, school education system, social enterprise, and vocational education/training for young people for many years, and all these involved visits to schools (all in the UK). In one occasion, I/we visited an estate agent in North London who told us how two identical houses on both sides of a street could fetch so much different prices because one house was on the ‘right’ side, i.e. in the catchment. Whilst my last involvement was a few years ago, I don’t believe things have changed very much let alone improved.

So no experience of music education then ?

Thanks for the information, most useful

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Let’s not get too hung up by what Ofsted says. Whilst there are good Ofsted inspectors around, most of the ones I know/have known are/were in it only for their 30 pieces of silver and did a pretty soggy job.

Unfortunately, these quangolese people have been granted power far beyond their actual worth and can make or break schools and individual teachers on a whim.

[MrGongGong]

Let’s not get too hung up by what Ofsted says. Whilst there are good Ofsted inspectors around, most of the ones I know/have known are/were in it only for their 30 pieces of silver and did a pretty soggy job.

Unfortunately, these quangolese people have been granted power far beyond their actual worth and can make or break schools and individual teachers on a whim.

What's the difference between an Ofsted inspector and the IRA ?
You can negotiate with the IRA

[doversoul1]

So no experience of music education then ?

Thanks for the information, most useful

Not music in school education as the maim subject. We visited a primary school in Birmingham where the head told us that once the children were invited to a CBSO concert. She said ‘these children have absolutely nothing at home and it was so good to see them excited’. I am all for music in school.

Another primary school we visited, this was in London, spent a lot of time on extra care programmes (I can’t remember the exact term). We asked what the parents of the children who didn’t need all those extra programmes thought about what the school was doing. The head answered ‘they don’t send their children here’. Parental choice but not all parents are able/capable of making a choice.

[MrGongGong]

Not music in school education as the maim subject. We visited a primary school in Birmingham where the head told us that once the children were invited to a CBSO concert. She said ‘these children have absolutely nothing at home and it was so good to see them excited’. I am all for music in school.

Another primary school we visited, this was in London, spent a lot of time on extra care programmes (I can’t remember the exact term). We asked what the parents of the children who didn’t need all those extra programmes thought about what the school was doing. The head answered ‘they don’t send their children here’. Parental choice but not all parents are able/capable of making a choice.

So why the opposition to a school that is intended to extend access to musical participation ?

NO, it won't "solve" the problems in other schools BUT what on earth are we supposed to do ?
I get the chance to work in other countries (Finland, Portugal, Norway etc ) where music IS encouraged
BUT spend much of my time (three days in London special schools this week and 3 next in Birmingham primary schools then a project in Scotland with "vulnerable" children composing music in responese to landscape) trying to make things happen here in England where I live.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What's the difference between an Ofsted inspector and the IRA ?
You can negotiate with the IRA

I know someone who did manipulate an Ofsted inspector to increase a grading from satisfactory to outstanding. The inspector had no understanding of what the lesson was about.

[doversoul1]

So why the opposition to a school that is intended to extend access to musical participation ?

I thought you were bored stiff by now by my saying Parents Parents Parents. It matters not an atom what this school is meant to be or not meant to be. That is not the issue. The parents who want their children to be in a school associated with such a BIG NAME will do anything to get a place for their offspring. This then leaves out the children and their parents who have no means/connections, or no ideas about how to push things for their benefit. This is not at all about music education in school. It’s about social manipulation or community management or something of that sort.

[oddoneout]

Let’s not get too hung up by what Ofsted says. Whilst there are good Ofsted inspectors around, most of the ones I know/have known are/were in it only for their 30 pieces of silver and did a pretty soggy job.

Unfortunately, these quangolese people have been granted power far beyond their actual worth and can make or break schools and individual teachers on a whim.

And equally unfortunately the judgements are used by parents choosing schools. During my 13 years as a High School governor I experienced 3 Ofsted inspections and the problems caused by the outcomes.

[MrGongGong]

I thought you were bored stiff by now by my saying Parents Parents Parents. It matters not an atom what this school is meant to be or not meant to be. That is not the issue. The parents who want their children to be in a school associated with such a BIG NAME will do anything to get a place for their offspring. This then leaves out the children and their parents who have no means/connections, or no ideas about how to push things for their benefit. This is not at all about music education in school. It’s about social manipulation or community management or something of that sort.

I'm not sure that parents really think that the CBSO is a "big name" at all.
Sure, for those of us who think that music is important maybe but for the rest of the world ? nope

So what is your solution to the total disaster that has been inflicted on music education ?
At least the CBSO are actually DOING something

This IS about music education

One of the reasons we have schools is to make it possible for children to escape from the influence of their parents