Grumble Thread

[Serial_Apologist]

Friends of mine in Clifton, Bristol, owned a cat which would always follow them to local shops - they would have to ask passers by to take her back to their home address - and so, when it came time for them to move - to another part of Clifton, half a mile away - they just let the cat follow them and their final belongings to the new address, where she settled in immediately.

Domestic moggies might be thought a species discongruent with its natural environment; but most environments in which people own cats have evolved very differently from what they would otherwise have done without human habitation and intervention, and it strikes me that cats are as much a part of that forced interventionist ecological pattern of evolution as the other species. Because of difficulties when it comes down to quantification, which would be necessary to say whether or not cats' presence has had more deleterious consequences for biodiversity than otherwise, it is very difficult to claim objectively that they are more harmful than other species, which seems to comprise the overall tone of this discussion.

[Dave2002]

Because of difficulties when it comes down to quantification, which would be necessary to say whether or not cats' presence has had more deleterious consequences for biodiversity than otherwise, it is very difficult to claim objectively that they are more harmful than other species, which seems to comprise the overall tone of this discussion.

The story is a good one.

Regarding objective evidence there have been studies which show the extent of the havoc which Mrs Tiddles can do.

[RichardB]

I have two cats. They were both rescued from the street. One of them is missing a leg which had somehow been crushed when he was found, and he certainly wouldn't have survived if left to his own devices. We live on the third floor so the cats don't go out except onto the balcony and they have never killed anything apart from insects. My ex-cat is able to go out into the courtyard/garden where she lives, and has also never killed anything larger than an insect. I've had cats before which have brought back the odd mouse and maybe one bird in their entire lifetimes. I think the problem of cats killing other creatures is highly overstated. In cities, anyway. In the countryside it's probably more of an issue. But, historically, cats "adopted" humans rather than the other way around. They found a handy ecological niche keeping mice from spoiling grain stores, for which they were rewarded with shelter.

[Joseph K]

Sometimes there are one or two cats that like to come into our garden probably because we get quite a lot of birds, but the cats dash quickly away as soon as I open the back door.

Contrast this to the reaction I got at my grandmother's cottage. She has like a summer house/room attached to the cottage whose door (as I could infer) she routinely leaves open over night because when I walked down into the kitchen in the morning and looked into the summer room there was a cat languidly reclining in one of the chairs of the room and when I went in to shoo it, it just looked at me like "I don't know who the hell you think you're dealing with here" and didn't move at all!

[Bryn]

Sometimes there are one or two cats that like to come into our garden probably because we get quite a lot of birds, but the cats dash quickly away as soon as I open the back door.

Contrast this to the reaction I got at my grandmother's cottage. She has like a summer house/room attached to the cottage whose door (as I could infer) she routinely leaves open over night because when I walked down into the kitchen in the morning and looked into the summer room there was a cat languidly reclining in one of the chairs of the room and when I went in to shoo it, it just looked at me like "I don't know who the hell you think you're dealing with here" and didn't move at all!

A water pistol loaded with orange juice might assist it to move.

[RichardB]

it just looked at me like "I don't know who the hell you think you're dealing with here" and didn't move at all!

See this is one of the things cat people like about them. They are always completely honest in their dealings with people (and each other). My cats try that on with me almost every evening when it's time for them to leave the living room. (They aren't allowed to spend the night in the living room because the bedroom opens directly off it and they would be scratching on the door for their breakfast at 5am. They probably do that form the hallway anyway but we can't hear them.)

Another reason for having pets around, while I'm in self-justification mode, is that it teaches children about the importance of being kind and gentle to animals. Mind you, a dog would live in my house over my dead body.

[Serial_Apologist]

See this is one of the things cat people like about them. They are always completely honest in their dealings with people (and each other). My cats try that on with me almost every evening when it's time for them to leave the living room. (They aren't allowed to spend the night in the living room because the bedroom opens directly off it and they would be scratching on the door for their breakfast at 5am. They probably do that form the hallway anyway but we can't hear them.)

Another reason for having pets around, while I'm in self-justification mode, is that it teaches children about the importance of being kind and gentle to animals. Mind you, a dog would live in my house over my dead body.

The idea of training dogs into submissive obedience has always struck me as yet another unacceptable face of humans lording it over other "inferior" species - I can't help but feel there's an element of "Stockholm syndrome" about the eagerness to please the master/mistress - while, on the other hand, I can't think of any cat exhibiting the level of jealousy that would lead them to savage a defenseless baby - cat's are too independent-minded, a characteristic much more admirable to my mind. One can learn how to recognise the body language when it comes to cats preferring to be left alone, whereas with dogs one is never sure. With dogs, on the one hand there's the "sycophancy", on the other the unpredictability, coupled with physical power and menace. And then there are the examples of what dogs can do to livestock when let off the leash. It has always seemed odd to me that dogs are praised as heroes and awarded when sent into dangerous situations which shouldn't happen in the first place. How sad that there have to be controlled environments for them to be free fully to exercise in.

[Joseph K]

The idea of training dogs into submissive obedience has always struck me as yet another unacceptable face of humans lording it over other "inferior" species - I can't help but feel there's an element of "Stockholm syndrome" about the eagerness to please the master/mistress - while, on the other hand, I can't think of any cat exhibiting the level of jealousy that would lead them to savage a defenseless baby - cat's are too independent-minded, a characteristic much more admirable to my mind. One can learn how to recognise the body language when it comes to cats preferring to be left alone, whereas with dogs one is never sure. With dogs, on the one hand there's the "sycophancy", on the other the unpredictability, coupled with physical power and menace. And then there are the examples of what dogs can do to livestock when let off the leash. It has always seemed odd to me that dogs are praised as heroes and awarded when sent into dangerous situations which shouldn't happen in the first place. How sad that there have to be controlled environments for them to be free fully to exercise in.

It's a shame you have anti-dog prejudice, S_A - quoting some extreme examples (savaging a baby) as though they are typical.

My dad had a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, which was very affectionate and cute. This particular dog (for I wouldn't want to speak in great sweeping statements) would get excited over going for walks and had a bundle of energy, always appreciated being petted. I am not sure what you mean by 'sycophancy' nor how this could be applied to dogs, the idea of a dog trying somehow hoodwink you into doing its bidding is a bit silly, to put it mildly - at least the dogs I've been around.

[Old Grumpy]

See this is one of the things cat people like about them. They are always completely honest in their dealings with people (and each other). My cats try that on with me almost every evening when it's time for them to leave the living room. (They aren't allowed to spend the night in the living room because the bedroom opens directly off it and they would be scratching on the door for their breakfast at 5am. They probably do that form the hallway anyway but we can't hear them.)

Another reason for having pets around, while I'm in self-justification mode, is that it teaches children about the importance of being kind and gentle to animals. Mind you, a dog would live in my house over my dead body.

Hmm...

...dogs and dead bodies - don't go there!

[Bryn]

Hmm...

...dogs and dead bodies - don't go there!

Nor cats. They don't wait long to get a taste.

[oddoneout]

I have two cats. They were both rescued from the street. One of them is missing a leg which had somehow been crushed when he was found, and he certainly wouldn't have survived if left to his own devices. We live on the third floor so the cats don't go out except onto the balcony and they have never killed anything apart from insects. My ex-cat is able to go out into the courtyard/garden where she lives, and has also never killed anything larger than an insect. I've had cats before which have brought back the odd mouse and maybe one bird in their entire lifetimes. I think the problem of cats killing other creatures is highly overstated. In cities, anyway. In the countryside it's probably more of an issue. But, historically, cats "adopted" humans rather than the other way around. They found a handy ecological niche keeping mice from spoiling grain stores, for which they were rewarded with shelter.

What a cat brings back to its owner isn't a good indication of what it is or isn't actually killing, which is why the observational studies are necessary. Another thing that needs to be taken into account is the extent to which simply the presence of cats can affect birds, regardless of whether there is any predation. In all the gardens I have had, the presence of cats, particularly ones which like to sit and watch, resulted in birds steering clear which is annoying. When death or house moves remove them from the scene, as has happened here the past 3 years, it is noticeable how the numbers of small birds in the garden increases and isn't affected by my presence and gardening activities.
As something of an aside I find it interesting, if not particularly surprising, how often folk will rail against predator birds such as magpies taking baby birds/destroying song bird populations but discount the possibility/likelihood that their cat may well be doing the same - a case of what the eye don't see?

[oddoneout]

The idea of training dogs into submissive obedience has always struck me as yet another unacceptable face of humans lording it over other "inferior" species - I can't help but feel there's an element of "Stockholm syndrome" about the eagerness to please the master/mistress - while, on the other hand, I can't think of any cat exhibiting the level of jealousy that would lead them to savage a defenseless baby - cat's are too independent-minded, a characteristic much more admirable to my mind. One can learn how to recognise the body language when it comes to cats preferring to be left alone, whereas with dogs one is never sure. With dogs, on the one hand there's the "sycophancy", on the other the unpredictability, coupled with physical power and menace. And then there are the examples of what dogs can do to livestock when let off the leash. It has always seemed odd to me that dogs are praised as heroes and awarded when sent into dangerous situations which shouldn't happen in the first place. How sad that there have to be controlled environments for them to be free fully to exercise in.

Isn't the difference in dogs and cats, and therefore the way humans interact with them, related to how their wild forebears behave - broadly whether they are pack or independent/co-existing? A dog needs and wants to know its place in the domestic unit (not unlike a child needing boundaries) and so training doesn't have to mean submission as such, but absence of training doesn't make the dog happier. Cats will create their own place in the scheme of things.

[teamsaint]

What a cat brings back to its owner isn't a good indication of what it is or isn't actually killing, which is why the observational studies are necessary. Another thing that needs to be taken into account is the extent to which simply the presence of cats can affect birds, regardless of whether there is any predation. In all the gardens I have had, the presence of cats, particularly ones which like to sit and watch, resulted in birds steering clear which is annoying. When death or house moves remove them from the scene, as has happened here the past 3 years, it is noticeable how the numbers of small birds in the garden increases and isn't affected by my presence and gardening activities.
As something of an aside I find it interesting, if not particularly surprising, how often folk will rail against predator birds such as magpies taking baby birds/destroying song bird populations but discount the possibility/likelihood that their cat may well be doing the same - a case of what the eye don't see?

Just an observation, but we have two cats, ( no apology for that !!) . We feed the garden birds consistently, and the garden is full of small birds.
Of course there might be even more if we didn’t have the cats , but I do rather doubt it in our case.

Also,I was attacked by a dog which drew blood whilst I was running in the woods recently. Not the first time this has happened either.Never been attacked by a cat in the same situation…..

[Dave2002]

You could consider this as a surivival of the fittest example - but then if we didn't exist then many cats wouldn't either. The same goes for dogs and many other animals. When did you last see an ox in the UK?

Indeed many birds can escape cats, so are not really vulnerable, but that is not the case for some birds which nest on the ground. Then humans come along and decide to build housing estates close to large areas of grassland and the birds which live there are then threatened. Saying that the houses are only a mile or so from the open spaces is not a good argument for some species - as the cats will get them. The same is true for dogs and horses - which humans may like to ride across such areas - but cats are probably the worst.

As for anthropomphism re cats - don't go there - same with dogs. Most of us have no use for such animals - but there is the companionship factor - the "need" to care for something else which undoubtedly has an effect on us.

[RichardB]

Most of us have no use for such animals

Most of whom?