Grumble Thread

[Roger Webb]

The 4-panel door is made up of a basic frame of 3 horizontal rails: the top rail is relatively narrow, the bottom rail is wider and the middle rail, or lock rail, the widest and is set a bit lower than halfway down. These are tenoned into the two side pieces, or stiles. The lock rail has a double tenon each end - a very wide tenon with a piece cut out of it, to increase the gluing surface. Before gluing into the stiles two short perpendicular pieces (muntins) are tenoned, the first into the top rail and lock rail, the second into the lock rail and bottom rail. So to assemble: take the top rail and push the top muntin into its bottom edge; then push the other end of the muntin into the lock rail. Then do the same with the lower muntin - up into the lock rail and down into the bottom rail. You will have cut a narrow groove into the inner edges of all the pieces and you slide the four thin panels into the grooves. Then you push the stiles on to the tenons sticking out from the rails. There should be shoulders cut into the two top tenons to prevent twisting and you can hammer in small wedges to tighten the tenons. Cramp it up and if it's square, disassemble the whole thing, apply the glue and put it back together again. Cramp it up with sash cramps and leave overnight.

That's very impressive FF. Did you do this in carpentry lessons at night school or some such? Or do you have a fully functioning workshop at home - I tend to do my little bits of woodworking in the kitchen on a Black and Decker 'Workmate', anything like making a door would be out of the question. When we moved into our cottage the previous owners had actioned many 'improvements', including 60s plain panel doors with plastic handles, so my carpenter made nice cottagey plank ones with braces on the back and clackety-clack latches. Those types I perhaps could have managed to fabricate, but I'm in awe of your 'Victorian-style' ones...did the panels you fitted have bevels as you see on the real thing?

[vinteuil]

Before gluing into the stiles two short perpendicular pieces (muntins) are tenoned, the first into the top rail and lock rail, the second into the lock rail and bottom rail...

... I only encountered the word 'stiles' in this sense last week - reading my father's description of repairing a greenhouse door by turning it upside-down, disassembling and rebuilding and re-installing. But he made no mention of 'muntins'...

So I have acquired two new items of vocabulary in the last week - many thanks, FrFr

[french frank]

But he made no mention of 'muntins'...

I don't think a greenhouse door would need muntins as the frame probably would be lighter and not need the additional strength of a heavier door.

So I have acquired two new items of vocabulary in the last week - many thanks, FrFr

Not at all. It's not often I'm able to demonstrate any knowledge about anything on this forum I should add that the stiles would be the same width as the top rail, and all would be c. 38mm thick. Also, when you have the door dry assembled and cramped up, you waggle the panels from side to side to make sure there is a bit of movement. Then when gluing up you just add a dab of glue on the top edge of each panel at the centre. This is because you don't want the panel to move but you do want to leave room for the timber to expand and contract. Joiners didn't always do that which is why old panels often have a split down the grain. Centrally heated houses cause timber to contract.

Roger, I was kicking my heels so did a level one NVQ in carpentry and joinery (along with all the 16-year-old school leavers) and 2 years of C&G furniture making. And three weekend courses with a cabinetmaker in Bideford. Though as Dr Johnson said re women preaching and dogs walking on their hind legs ...

[Roger Webb]

Roger, I was kicking my heels so did a level one NVQ in carpentry and joinery (along with all the 16-year-old school leavers) and 2 years of C&G furniture making. And three weekend courses with a cabinetmaker in Bideford. Though as Dr Johnson said re women preaching and dogs walking on their hind legs ...

......NVQ in carpentry and joinery.....2 year C and G furniture making......three weekends with a chippy in Bideford....we're talking a veritable Makepiece!

[AuntDaisy]

...
Roger, I was kicking my heels so did a level one NVQ in carpentry and joinery (along with all the 16-year-old school leavers) and 2 years of C&G furniture making. And three weekend courses with a cabinetmaker in Bideford. Though as Dr Johnson said re women preaching and dogs walking on their hind legs ...

As Roger said, impressive; and very Arts & Crafts.

[french frank]

......NVQ in carpentry and joinery.....2 year C and G furniture making......three weekends with a chippy in Bideford....we're talking a veritable Makepiece!

In a way , we are. But please, there are three classes of woodworker, in ascending order: the chippy/carpenter who uses nails, screws and hammer/screwdriver; the joiner who cuts basic joints (makes doors and window frames) and glues them; and the cabinetmaker who makes fine furniture - lapped tenons, dovetails, secret mitre dovetails - and works to micromillimeters with a Vernier gauge. I have a Vernier gauge (which is just generally useful about the house anyway: you can measure the diameter of a wine bottle or a banana, for example).

[Serial_Apologist]

... I only encountered the word 'stiles' in this sense last week - reading my father's description of repairing a greenhouse door by turning it upside-down, disassembling and rebuilding and re-installing. But he made no mention of 'muntins'...

So I have acquired two new items of vocabulary in the last week - many thanks, FrFr

French frank has demonstrated exemplary knowledge in architectural construction terminology. I had only discovered "muntins" in an article on the handsome late Georgian dwellings of New Camberwell Road last October, when I visited the street in question and peered at the frontages of the houses to find out what the term meant. As usual with architectural guides the explanations are pretty vague and generalising. I would love to be able to find a book with illustrations of characteristic front doors on British houses of all classes from the 17th to the early 20th centuries, like a book I found on my grandfather's shelves as a child showing the different pannellings, pediments, door cases and so on. A Google! check only displays firms of today offering imitations!

[french frank]

As Roger said, impressive; and very Arts & Crafts.

Very à propos. The Arts & Crafts movement used joints, visibly, as essential design features. So very finely cut dovetails, for instance, were decorative features rather than just ways to connect two pieces of wood which were then hidden from sight.

[Roger Webb]

Very à propos. The Arts & Crafts movement used joints, visibly, as essential design features. So very finely cut dovetails, for instance, were decorative features rather than just ways to connect two pieces of wood which were then hidden from sight.

As I described above, my magnum opus of woodworking used dovetails, but failed on both counts: they were neither effective as a decorative feature, nor connected two pieces...well not with enough strength to withstand a mallet blow delivered with relish by an irate teacher who realised he was wasting his time. I forgot to mention that before the fatal blow, each bookshelf was prodded by a finger, if it wobbled even a quarter inch, that was enough to consign it to firewood!

BTW Cheltenham Wilson Museum and Art Gallery has one of the finest collections of Arts and Crafts....incl. much by C R Ashby who had his studios at nearby Chipping Camden....this Cotswold village worth a visit for those keen on the Arts and Craft movt.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I described above, my magnum opus of woodworking used dovetails, but failed on both counts: they were neither effective as a decorative feature, nor connected two pieces...well not with enough strength to withstand a mallet blow delivered with relish by an irate teacher who realised he was wasting his time. I forgot to mention that before the fatal blow, each bookshelf was prodded by a finger, if it wobbled even a quarter inch, that was enough to consign it to firewood!

BTW Cheltenham Wilson Museum and Art Gallery has one of the finest collections of Arts and Crafts....incl. much by C R Ashby who had his studios at nearby Chipping Camden....this Cotswold village worth a visit for those keen on the Arts and Craft movt.

...and not too far from Kelmscott Manor, I would think...

[Roger Webb]

...and not too far from Kelmscott Manor, I would think...

No, Kelmscott is a must, as is The Red House, Bexleyheath.

[gradus]

Its quite hard to find properly proportioned doors made as Frenchie describes, most seems to have the lock rail set too high and imv don't look right although they seem to be the only type generally available unless you can find someone to make them affordably.

[Roger Webb]

Its quite hard to find properly proportioned doors made as Frenchie describes, most seems to have the lock rail set too high and imv don't look right although they seem to be the only type generally available unless you can find someone to make them affordably.

Perhaps FF should go into production of bespoke units.........maybe be called 'Frenchies Doors'.

[Pulcinella]

Perhaps FF should go into production of bespoke units.........maybe be called 'Frenchies Doors'.

Would any price quotations she sent through the post count as French letters?

[Roger Webb]

Would any price quotations she sent through the post count as French letters?

I don't know...check the postmark to see if it's franked!