May is nearly out and so is May

[french frank]

What's with all this smarting? Am I to assume that you are devil's advocating? Otherwise I would have to accuse you of deliberate concoction! I'm not asking you to explain to the Daily Fail reader that we're talking about THIS lot of Tories in THIS particular situation nine years on, or to explain that the reason for John Corbyn is Tony Blair.

I bow out. I don't understand what you mean. I'm trying to express a practical point of view how I see it, devoid of political dogma. There seems to be a certain dodging of issues - to me.

That's all, folks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If no one else has anything new they'd like to add to the discussion, might I suggest that we bring the Thread to a close - if only temporarily - to restore "normal" relations on the Forum? (Or what passes for normal hereabouts at any rate.)

[Serial_Apologist]

I bow out. I don't understand what you mean. I'm trying to express a practical point of view how I see it, devoid of political dogma. There seems to be a certain dodging of issues - to me.

That's all, folks.

If you had said, "People see the Labour Party as the same party that took Britain into Iraq" I would have seen what you meant and agreed; it would have been a reply congruent in tone with my previous post. Whatever Richard T might say I would never be so condescending as to tell you and others following this debate why Corbyn's Labour Party is a very different animal from the one led by Blair and Brown. Don't you see how your reading of what I had said looks like a deliberate misreading, unless it is supposed to be taken ironically? If I am to take you seriously, once a political party loses an election it is on principle bound to support the party taking over. It's hard to see why this wouldn't amount to punishment.

[Serial_Apologist]

If no one else has anything new they'd like to add to the discussion, might I suggest that we bring the Thread to a close - if only temporarily - to restore "normal" relations on the Forum? (Or what passes for normal hereabouts at any rate.)

What are people getting so steamed up about? I genuinely don't understand at all.

[Dave2002]

What are people getting so steamed up about? I genuinely don't understand at all.

Obviously we have to return to discussing Wagner or Bruckner, which are sometimes interesting - and quite often not, rather than freedom of speech and privacy, and whether Alastair Campbell should have been expelled from one of the parties under discussion.

[Richard Tarleton]

If you had said, "People see the Labour Party as the same party that took Britain into Iraq" I would have seen what you meant and agreed; it would have been a reply congruent in tone with my previous post. Whatever Richard T might say I would never be so condescending as to tell you and others following this debate why Corbyn's Labour Party is a very different animal from the one led by Blair and Brown. Don't you see how your reading of what I had said looks like a deliberate misreading, unless it is supposed to be taken ironically? If I am to take you seriously, once a political party loses an election it is on principle bound to support the party taking over. It's hard to see why this wouldn't amount to punishment.

Eh? What? Why are you dragging me into this, S_A? I don't recall ever expressing a view on the forum on Corbyn''s vis-a-vis Blair/Brown's Labour Party, indeed (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think I've ever expressed a party political view on the forum, unlike several contributors to this thread. Whatever I may think, I haven't shared it here. Our earlier contretemps was around what I considered to be the poor form of suggesting someone had slipped french frank a mickey, which had clouded her judgement (I paraphrase, but not a lot).

[Serial_Apologist]

Obviously we have to return to discussing Wagner or Bruckner, which are sometimes interesting - and quite often not, rather than freedom of speech and privacy, and whether Alastair Campbell should have been expelled from one of the parties under discussion.

When I first came on the forum it was under the BBC's wing; I felt I had been waiting my whole life to have on the level discussions with people with whom I sometimes disagreed, but was happy to be involved in debates in which people could talk straight without malice, abuse or misrepresentation, and as necessary to a forum founded on upholding standards agree to disagree. I have felt extraordinarily fortunate to be on a forum taking on falling standards at the BBC, have my tuppenceworth on why this might be the case, and where there was a spirit of generosity without sacrifice that meant people with experience, more knowledge and greater intelligence than I were prepared to give of the time and wisdoms to offer the sort of knowledge people would probably not get without having to spend a lot of money on expensive courses. I was overwhelmed with joy when french frank took it on herself to shepherd us into the independence we enjoy here, spending hours and days and endless amounts of patience and diplomacy in establishing the courtesy that has mostly pertained, barring a few instances that could have been anticipated, and offering kindness and advice on problems not exclusive to Radio 3 listening.

People here have known me long enough to know where I stand and how I pitch my stances. Yes I tease sometimes, because I like a bit of banter, and people generally know that the last thing I want is to hurt or offend. "Spread a Little Happiness" has always been my motto theme. When you are my kind of person it leaves you vulnerable to people using you as a distorting mirror and then a punchbag on whom to vent their unfinished business; I have had this throughout my life so I am well familiar with that of which I speak: in general it has distanced me from close relating, but with online, the shadowing mistrust can always be leavened in spaces where one is by default able to take a breather and then come back fresh to the otherwise unexpected fray to attempt to defuse whatever it was.

As such the forum has been akin to an oasis of sanity in a world going increasingly mad without the wherewithals to deconstruct and un-knot the Laingian ploys and power games that are sub-reflections of the larger overarching power games that dictate the pacing and intermeshing of the smaller wheels within the political ecosystem the operators of the much bigger wheels have to keep lubricating to stop their system seizing up. Between us, I have believed we had the forbearing overarching intelligence to keep that world in turmoil at bay, using what learning has bequeathed us, or at least those setting an exemplary lead here. This place has occupied a prime place in my life these past ten years that have flown by. Lately I have started having my doubts. When you get to 73 you start putting your own salvation to the fore over putting the world to rights. Rather than making myself ill over this, which would serve no purpose, I shall draw my involvements beyond the jazz area that first attracted me here to a close. We have our disagreements but they do not qualitatively spoil how we relate to each other on there. But thanks, good friends, for the many enjoyable, stimulating, thought-provoking and sometimes opinion-changing conversations.

[Dave2002]

I hope that's not another one leaving.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So what brings you here?

.

Don't feed the troll. He will be dealt with