May is nearly out and so is May

[MrGongGong]

As for half-hearted, I have the impression that whatever JC had said or done the media would have used his eurosceptic past as a way of attempting to discredit his more recent more nuanced opinion, just as MrGG has done.

Here's a quite strongly worded article from a few weeks ago that you might be interested to read on the latter subject:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/05/european-union-parliament-elections-antidemocratic

This is the kind of thing that has always made me a "eurosceptic"! Even so, my money is still on Brexit not really happening. The only thing that's happened in the course of the process which has surprised me somewhat is the shift in the spectrum of opinion - while previously there was talk of a whole range of "hard" and "soft" Brexits, now it seems to be either no deal or no Brexit, and if that were the choice I'm sure JC would wholeheartedly agree with me that the latter is preferable.

I think you are being far too generous to JC.
Yes, we know the media have attacked him for all sorts of made-up nonsense

I don't see his opinion as "nuanced" at all, just slippy and fence sitting and wanting to appease the hardcore anti-EU Socialist unicorn farmers in the Labour party which is where he came from.
It is sad, because on many things he is a very moderate politician

BUT the net result of supporting those who want to leave IS to hand power to the likes of Farage, Orban et al
You don't have to be a racist to put one in charge

[MrGongGong]

More infantile comments from core forum members concerning people they don't agree with. No wonder no-one pays any attention to this forum.

Ooo good
Why anyone should pay any attention to a load of music obsessed eccentrics ranting on the internet in the first place ?

[sidneyfox]

Ooo good
Why anyone should pay any attention to a load of music obsessed eccentrics ranting on the internet in the first place ?

Being music-obsessed and eccentric can be tantalising - but not the disconnected, superannuated and ultra-conservative.

[MrGongGong]

Being music-obsessed and eccentric can be tantalising - but not the disconnected, superannuated and ultra-conservative.

Of whom do you speak ?

[oddoneout]

More infantile comments from core forum members concerning people they don't agree with. No wonder no-one pays any attention to this forum.

So what brings you here?

[sidneyfox]

Of whom do you speak ?

Not you

[Joseph K]

the 'liberals' for whom the climate crisis comes probably joint first with policies that seek equality, social justice and reforming the UK's broken democracy.

!!!

Are we talking about the same party that enabled austerity in the first place? And you seriously think the 'liberals' are greener than Labour (let alone seeking equality etc.)

[Pulcinella]

Being music-obsessed and eccentric can be tantalising - but not the disconnected, superannuated and ultra-conservative.

My superannuation fund is treating me surprisingly well, thank you.
Mind you, I feel for those now having to pay such high proportions in to enable them to retire on anything like a sufficient payout.

[sidneyfox]

My superannuation fund is treating me surprisingly well, thank you.
Mind you, I feel for those now having to pay such high proportions in to enable them to retire on anything like a sufficient payout.

We all saw your shameful first post - quite right you edited it. There are other forum members who are almost able retire, but probably won't have the sort of generous pension that you enjoy, when they do. Spare a thought for them before you crow about 'your life of luxury that you enjoy'.

[sidneyfox]

So what brings you here?

The BaL on Tapiola. Looked in this thread and saw the infantile comments about Nigel, so I posted my thoughts.

[LMcD]

I think it is what is commonly known as having a sense of humour.

So THAT's what I've been suffering from all these years … my specialist couldn't work out what it was, but assured me that, whatever it was, it was almost certainly but probably manageable.

[Pulcinella]

We all saw your shameful first post - quite right you edited it. There are other forum members who are almost able retire, but probably won't have the sort of generous pension that you enjoy, when they do. Spare a thought for them before you crow about 'your life of luxury that you enjoy'.

Isn't that exactly what my second sentence reveals?

Actually, I'm not sure what the post of yours that I quoted means: the superannuated (and others) can't be tantalising?

[Richard Barrett]

the infantile comments about Nigel

We only want what's best for him.

[Serial_Apologist]

!!! It was an article entirely devoted to concerns about democracy.



!!!




Possibly - but it was you who provided the link to an article about the EU's lack of democracy and said it was what made you veer toward 'euroscepticism'. I was merely focusing on what I thought, perhaps erroneously, was the main point of your post. But, you having posted an article on what someone else thinks about democracy and the EU, let me voice my own opinion on what I think is important and what makes me pro the EU:

I see the two major - and immediate - problems facing the world at the moment as being (not the destruction of capitalism): 1) the climate emergency and 2) the rise in right-wing populist/nationalist climate crisis-denying governments. Both must be combated on a wider level, rather than focusing on electing a government which will, hopefully, bring a socialist regime to the UK. So what I have against Jeremy Corbyn is that he does not have a strong commitment to the environment or PR (nor does the Labour party. Yes to reform of the HoL, which would benefit Labour, um possibly to reform of the voting system which might not benefit Labour).

On this basis, I think that the two parties best placed to tackle the global problems are the two pro-EU groupings which, together (including the AP in NI), topped the recent poll in terms of the popular vote: the Greens - whose top priority is the climate crisis but who are of the progressive left and pro PR, and the 'liberals' for whom the climate crisis comes probably joint first with policies that seek equality, social justice and reforming the UK's broken democracy. And on that final point, they were punished in 2015 - not for failing in their attempted democratic reforms but in attempting to do so in the first place by entering what most thought an unsavoury alliance.

And if one is concerned about 'democracy', the obviously most 'democratic' result of the 2010 election would have been, not a coalition of a major and a minor party, but a joint administration between Labour and Conservatives. ROFL, as they say.

Firstly I'm not sure what it is that makes you say that labour does not have a strong commitment to the environment, given that they have said they would support industries in the new techniology sector dealing with sustainable energy production and insulating properties - unless your are referring to their support also for the third runway at Heathrow and HS2: the two policy positons that would stick in my craw and are a big part of why I won't re-join.

On First Past The Post, the Liberals under Clegg found a way of circumventing FPTP by means of tactical voting, thereby gaining sufficient counterveiling support to become the balancing factor in the no majority situation facing the Tories. (BTW Labour under Brown could never have been contemplated as a coalition partner, and they wanted out of government in any case). Against the evening out of votes so as to give a representation of overall votes nationwide, one that is fairer purely numerically, by spreading the geographical reach, PR would if anything further distance the elected representative from his or her constituents. At the end of the day PR uses arithmatic to rectify a situation historically pretetermined by the reality that the majority of working class people, who were once thought of as loyal Labour supporters, live in cities, whereas the Tory/Liberal supporting middle classes are more sparsely dispersed. All of these demographic considerations break down if the case now is that Laboour's historical support base has now, post heavy industry, abandoned ship for right wing populist parties, thereby returning FPTP to a position where any candidate is less bedevilled by "class issues", regardless of party, and we can once again sigh with wistfulness at having power determined by the intrinsic rightness or wrongness of policies genuinely democratically voted for, and not to be negotiated away post-factum in what would once have been described as "smoke-filled rooms".

[Frances_iom]

!!!

Are we talking about the same party that enabled austerity in the first place? And you seriously think the 'liberals' are greener than Labour (let alone seeking equality etc.)

That was Clegg - proof indeed that power corrupts - but he has finally found his ideal job - front for Farcebook - the misguided prostrating themselves in front of the nasty